So, I'm officially closing this down. Due to recent happenings in my personal life I am no longer researching, learning about, or writing about any kind of chemical enhancement- legal or questionably so. So, that kind of puts this blog out of commission. I'm still passionate about bodybuilding, I guess that never goes away. And, I am still training hard but without any kind of supplementation- not even protein powder at the moment. I wish anyone reading this well. And, since I can't seem to remember my godaddy info, I guess this stays up. :)
Take anything you read on this blog- brief as it is- with a grain of salt. Most of it is theory on my part. I tried various aspects of what I wrote about (as noted in the articles), but the real value to me was trying to sift through all the vagaries of the various peptides and their practical application.
For the most part, all the peptides (gh secretoges, igfs etc) are "icing on the cake" sort of products. They won't give you the "punch" of an androgen or SARM as they are each specialty items. One does a little of this, another does a little of that. Take a handful, or educated mix, of various igfs, secretogues and low dose sarms and you you have a good "off cycle" combo to keep gains and strength. I believe that at some point this type of supplementation will be more common-place as it represents a more "balanced" approach as it doesn't just pound one vital system or another. In other words there is less overall negative impact if done with precision.
Nothing I've written about is for kids or beginners. Some of it is questionable from a legal standpoint and that should always be taken into consideration. No amount of muscle or six-pack abs is worth your personal freedom. Trust me on that. Once you have your world threatened with real time away you get a new perspective. Be safe, be smart, and enjoy the info here simply as entertainment and food for thought. The bottom line is that you can achieve way more than you probably think on your own- without supplements. And, if you decide to go the supplement route, think it through and do all your research. I believe everyone has a right to their own personal decisions that truly only affect them. But, be safe and use your own best judgement.
Take care,
CM
Discussing new and innovative techniques in physique enhancement including: GH peptide secretogues, igf-1 peptides, anabolics, insulin, Growth Hormone, otc supplementation and diet.
Friday, January 7, 2011
Wednesday, December 1, 2010
Phoshatidylcholine/lipostabil experiment
Day 1: Dec. 1st, 2010 2 mL, 500 mg injected...
As dated as the concept may seem to many diehard bodybuilders out there (those who've been around for 10 years or more), I've decided to perform another experiment with phosphatidylcholine- aka lipostabil. Lipostabil is a product used in Brazil containing phosphatidylcholine (PC) and used in place of liposuction for certain people. It is very popular in certain parts of the world and has been shown to work in various scientific studies.
In over simplified terms, the way lipostabil works is to cause the fat cell itself to become less able to contain liquid (water and nutrients) and therefore it shrinks and becomes innactive when it comes into contact with and affected by PC. I have had some results using my own transdermal application of PC before- years ago when I applied it to one side of my torso: love handles, abs, and intercostals. When I did this I was probably 17% bf or more. I only applied my home-made mixture to one side every evening just to see if I could compare it to the other to gauge results. Yes, I did get results. They were subtle, but you could tell a difference in pictures and in person. I was using DMSO as my chemical carrier and since PC has a molecular weight of around 110, it is easily carried through the skin by DMSO. I was, at the time using a lecithin concentrate that contained aprox. 40% PC.
Now I have access to a 90% pure version of PC and a 75% pure oil/alcohol preparation. Typically PC is administered in a water based form. But, I see no reason (doesn't mean there isn't one) an oil based injection would not have the same benefit- though I may play with the formula and come up with my own water based injectable. I will be following standard injection procedures for lipostabil: 250 mg/mL, 0.2 mL per injection, injections 1.5 cm apart spread over the area treated and no more than 5 mL per session. I did my first session this evening on my ab area and used only 2 mL. The first-draft oil based preparation I concocted tonight would only pass through a 23 gauge needle- so that was fun doing sub Q injects with!
Like I say, I may try to come up with a water based injectable next time around and gauge my results with that vs. the oil. And, later on I'll be using a DMSO/90% PC powder version for transdermal (applied on the skin) application. This is day 1. Let's see if I get the telltale welts from my homemade version as is reported with the pharm grade lipostabil. Presently my bf % is around 11% and my waist measures 36"- I am 6'2" and 225 lbs. I will post pictures as soon as time permits.
Application 2- Dec 7, 2010
I tried my second round of the oil-based injectable last night. After the first round of shots I got a few small knots (as is usual) and one surface bruise. I didn't get a lot of lasting swelling, but every other side described with lipostabil was there. When I started shooting the second batch of shots last night I got about 5 shots in (1mL) and thought, "To hell with this, too painful!" I don't know why, but it didn't seem near as painful the first go around, but what a tedious pain in the ass (or ab fat as the case may be). So, I figured that was as good a time as any to try a transdermal application.
I used a mortal and pestal technique with the solid, 90% PC material I was sent and ground it down to somewhat of a powder. But, by the time I applied the DMSO (rose scented cream with aloe- trust me the only tolerable way!) it had somewhat "gelled" again and was near impossible to spread over the areas I wanted to cover. Though DMSO can carry any substance through the skin and into the body as long as it has a molecular weight of 500 or less, a thick, gunky mess was just not going to cut it. At best, only small portions would soak through.
At first I resisted the idea of using the oil-based 75% PC solution. My thinking was that the DMSO would have a difficult time "pulling" the PC and oil through the skin. But, thinking about it I remembered that it broke down to 75% PC by weight, not by powder purity. When you think about it, that's pretty incredible. An oil-based injectable steroid is somewhere around 25% product by weight- or less. Plus, nearly 9% of the remainder of the compound was ethanol- which, itself is somewhat of a surfactant (i.e. it's likely only going to help the process). All told, the product is only about 15% mct oil- maybe even a bit less. Between the DMSO, aloe, and ethanol (all transdermal carriers to some degree) I am pretty sure a large amount of the 75% PC got through the skin and into my body. After applying more DMSO to the desired areas covered, the PC/oil/ethanol mix went on easily. I simply spooned out about a half teaspoon (2.5 grams) and spread it out over the DMSO covered areas.
Now, whether or not the PC will be doing its full job applied this way remains to be seen. Though it will pass through the skin and into the fat to some extent, it's a little bit of an unknown just how much that amount of absorbed PC will affect the fat cells themselves. I'm going to make a few guesses here. One, I believe, that I'm seeing 40% absorption. Given all the variables and after listening to reports with other people's experiences with DMSO and other substances, this is a generally accepted best guess at how much DMSO carries a substance through the skin- providing the molecular weight is low enough. Two, I suspect it will take between two and three weeks to see some kind of noticeable results. While my diet is decent at the moment- it isn't perfect and I'm certainly not starving myself. I'm keeping an eye on the areas I applied this stuff to. I will be re-applying 5 nights per week to give it ample opportunity to work. If I see results (yes, entirely subjective, but will post pics before and after when finished) I will continue to use this product as needed.
Update- Did a second application of the transdermal tonight. It goes on easy. I'm using rose-scented DMSO cream. It's the only way to go. It is 30% aloe- which is great for slightly less irritation. I'm using a sample batch of PC that I got from a manufacturer. But, I suspect it may be nearly the very same thing as this LINK. I'll let you know if I find out for certain- I'll check the analysis sheets that came with my sample batch.
I also spotted this LINK on ebay tonight. That won't last long. Someone selling Lipodissolve openly on ebay, lol.
I know I'm going to sound loony, but I believe I can already see some tightening of the areas I've applied the cream dmso/pc to. More than likely this is just a bit of dehydration at the site because of the various chemicals involved: alcohol, dmso etc. But, as time goes by we'll get a clear picture. And, like I say, I'll post before and afters. I'm not a great photographer, but I hope we can at least get and idea of what is going on- whether positive or bunk- from my photos.
As dated as the concept may seem to many diehard bodybuilders out there (those who've been around for 10 years or more), I've decided to perform another experiment with phosphatidylcholine- aka lipostabil. Lipostabil is a product used in Brazil containing phosphatidylcholine (PC) and used in place of liposuction for certain people. It is very popular in certain parts of the world and has been shown to work in various scientific studies.
In over simplified terms, the way lipostabil works is to cause the fat cell itself to become less able to contain liquid (water and nutrients) and therefore it shrinks and becomes innactive when it comes into contact with and affected by PC. I have had some results using my own transdermal application of PC before- years ago when I applied it to one side of my torso: love handles, abs, and intercostals. When I did this I was probably 17% bf or more. I only applied my home-made mixture to one side every evening just to see if I could compare it to the other to gauge results. Yes, I did get results. They were subtle, but you could tell a difference in pictures and in person. I was using DMSO as my chemical carrier and since PC has a molecular weight of around 110, it is easily carried through the skin by DMSO. I was, at the time using a lecithin concentrate that contained aprox. 40% PC.
Now I have access to a 90% pure version of PC and a 75% pure oil/alcohol preparation. Typically PC is administered in a water based form. But, I see no reason (doesn't mean there isn't one) an oil based injection would not have the same benefit- though I may play with the formula and come up with my own water based injectable. I will be following standard injection procedures for lipostabil: 250 mg/mL, 0.2 mL per injection, injections 1.5 cm apart spread over the area treated and no more than 5 mL per session. I did my first session this evening on my ab area and used only 2 mL. The first-draft oil based preparation I concocted tonight would only pass through a 23 gauge needle- so that was fun doing sub Q injects with!
Like I say, I may try to come up with a water based injectable next time around and gauge my results with that vs. the oil. And, later on I'll be using a DMSO/90% PC powder version for transdermal (applied on the skin) application. This is day 1. Let's see if I get the telltale welts from my homemade version as is reported with the pharm grade lipostabil. Presently my bf % is around 11% and my waist measures 36"- I am 6'2" and 225 lbs. I will post pictures as soon as time permits.
Application 2- Dec 7, 2010
I tried my second round of the oil-based injectable last night. After the first round of shots I got a few small knots (as is usual) and one surface bruise. I didn't get a lot of lasting swelling, but every other side described with lipostabil was there. When I started shooting the second batch of shots last night I got about 5 shots in (1mL) and thought, "To hell with this, too painful!" I don't know why, but it didn't seem near as painful the first go around, but what a tedious pain in the ass (or ab fat as the case may be). So, I figured that was as good a time as any to try a transdermal application.
I used a mortal and pestal technique with the solid, 90% PC material I was sent and ground it down to somewhat of a powder. But, by the time I applied the DMSO (rose scented cream with aloe- trust me the only tolerable way!) it had somewhat "gelled" again and was near impossible to spread over the areas I wanted to cover. Though DMSO can carry any substance through the skin and into the body as long as it has a molecular weight of 500 or less, a thick, gunky mess was just not going to cut it. At best, only small portions would soak through.
At first I resisted the idea of using the oil-based 75% PC solution. My thinking was that the DMSO would have a difficult time "pulling" the PC and oil through the skin. But, thinking about it I remembered that it broke down to 75% PC by weight, not by powder purity. When you think about it, that's pretty incredible. An oil-based injectable steroid is somewhere around 25% product by weight- or less. Plus, nearly 9% of the remainder of the compound was ethanol- which, itself is somewhat of a surfactant (i.e. it's likely only going to help the process). All told, the product is only about 15% mct oil- maybe even a bit less. Between the DMSO, aloe, and ethanol (all transdermal carriers to some degree) I am pretty sure a large amount of the 75% PC got through the skin and into my body. After applying more DMSO to the desired areas covered, the PC/oil/ethanol mix went on easily. I simply spooned out about a half teaspoon (2.5 grams) and spread it out over the DMSO covered areas.
Now, whether or not the PC will be doing its full job applied this way remains to be seen. Though it will pass through the skin and into the fat to some extent, it's a little bit of an unknown just how much that amount of absorbed PC will affect the fat cells themselves. I'm going to make a few guesses here. One, I believe, that I'm seeing 40% absorption. Given all the variables and after listening to reports with other people's experiences with DMSO and other substances, this is a generally accepted best guess at how much DMSO carries a substance through the skin- providing the molecular weight is low enough. Two, I suspect it will take between two and three weeks to see some kind of noticeable results. While my diet is decent at the moment- it isn't perfect and I'm certainly not starving myself. I'm keeping an eye on the areas I applied this stuff to. I will be re-applying 5 nights per week to give it ample opportunity to work. If I see results (yes, entirely subjective, but will post pics before and after when finished) I will continue to use this product as needed.
Update- Did a second application of the transdermal tonight. It goes on easy. I'm using rose-scented DMSO cream. It's the only way to go. It is 30% aloe- which is great for slightly less irritation. I'm using a sample batch of PC that I got from a manufacturer. But, I suspect it may be nearly the very same thing as this LINK. I'll let you know if I find out for certain- I'll check the analysis sheets that came with my sample batch.
I also spotted this LINK on ebay tonight. That won't last long. Someone selling Lipodissolve openly on ebay, lol.
I know I'm going to sound loony, but I believe I can already see some tightening of the areas I've applied the cream dmso/pc to. More than likely this is just a bit of dehydration at the site because of the various chemicals involved: alcohol, dmso etc. But, as time goes by we'll get a clear picture. And, like I say, I'll post before and afters. I'm not a great photographer, but I hope we can at least get and idea of what is going on- whether positive or bunk- from my photos.
Saturday, November 27, 2010
GH Secretogues Basics
A member at Professionalmuscle.com (Sarcoplasm) asked a good question the other day. They wanted to know where to start reading to begin to understand the basics of peptide use. Here was my response:
"This is a good question. Basically you have a few different categories:
GH Secretogues: ghrp-2, ghrp-6, and Ipamorelin are all popular growth hormone releasing peptides. When combined with a GRF (Growth hormone releasing factor) like mod grf 1-29 or cjc-1295 without DAC, then you get a great synergy and GH release from the pituitary. The basic desired dose is 1 mcg per kg of bodyweight. For me that's 100 mcg ea. up to 3 x day.
IGF-1 Drugs: igf1-lr3, igf-1 rh, des (1-3) igf-1, mgf, peg-mgf, igf2-lr3. Two schools of thought/methods of action for these drugs-
1) Insulin-like properties: The longer acting drugs are best for this: igf1-lr3 and peg-mgf. These produce results similar to humalog (used pre or post workout) but possibly with less of a tendency to desensitize the body to insulin.
2) Hyperplasia/site-enhancement: The shorter acting drugs are better for this. I just wrote all about this on my blog (see signature link). But, basically, a lot of the site-enhancement people saw early on was with igf-1 rh which is straight igf-1. DES (1-3) igf-1 is a new superior form of this. Again, check out my blog for more details!
Then there are the sarms- selective androgen receptor modulators. These work to build muscle in the same way as testosterone and other steroids but without the androgenic sides/less shut down of the hpta. Great for bridging imo.
This is just the very very basics. But, there is tons of info on this site and all over the web. This is my 2 cents only. No one knows it all! So, keep reading and keep learning! "
More on GH Secretogues:
Now, obviously I covered some bare minimums on the topic including a bit about igf-1 drugs. Since I've covered the igf-1 drugs so extensively (or at least long-windedly ) here before I want to focus on the GH secretogues.
First of all let me be clear that I am not a chemist or scientist and have no medical background. I'm your basic over-thinking gym-rat hobbyist that has read hours upon hours of material and often used himself as a test subject in trying to understand how all these things work as well as corresponding with others doing the same. There are guys more knowledgeable and guys with more experience. I'm just offering my two cents for what it's worth. Ok, now with that out of the way...
There are many many different chemical research supply store-fronts on the internet where you can purchase GH secretogues. For years I wondered, like many others, just what these GH peptides were, what they were supposed to do and how well they actually worked.
Basically, there are two forms of GH secretogues: GHRPs (growth hormone releasing peptides) and GRFs (also known as GHRH- growth hormone releasing hormones).
The GHRP drugs include: GHRP-2, GHRP-6 and Ipamorelin All of these stimulate the release of growth hormone by the pituitary but have their subtle differences. GHRP-2 causes less appetite stimulus than GHRP-6 for example. But, both GHRP-2 and GHRP-6 tend to raise cortisol and prolactin levels if over-used (i.e. in more-than-needed amounts!) vs. Ipamorelin which doesn't affect hunger, cortisol or prolactin nearly as much. So, Ipamorelin is the state of the art drug of choice for the GHRPs but all are worthwhile and have pretty much the same effects.
The GRF/GHRH drugs include: Mod GRF 1-29, cjc-1293, cjc-1295 without DAC and cjc-1295 with DAC. (Sermorelin would be mentioned but is an outdated GRF that only lasts a few minutes in the system-not quite what we're looking for.) These drugs stimulate growth hormone release like the GHRPs do, but through a slightly different pathway. Again, I'm not a scientist so don't ask me to explain it. All I know is that Mod GRF 1-29, cjc-1293 without DAC and cjc-1295 without DAC are all pretty much the same thing and are all effective in pretty much the same way. In other words, go with the cheapest one. The reason we're looking for the drugs withoutDAC is that the DAC modification is made to make the drug's effects very long lasting in the system- days vs hours. For male GH release patterns this is not what we want. We want a powerful "burst" or pulse of GH and then a return to baseline. Constantly elevated, and level GH patterns are somewhat counterproductive and more along the lines of natural female GH release patterns that aren't as well suited for bodybuilding purposes.
(Great explanation of the various GRF drugs and origins found here.)
The basic accepted idea is that taking a GHRP and a GRF together is a lot more powerful than taking, say, 2 times the dose of either on their own. They have a synergistic effect where 1 + 1 = 3 (or something to that effect). It would be financially foolish not to take advantage of this. The max dose people generally take of either one of these is 1 mcg per 1 kg of bodyweight. So a 220 lb bodybuilder would inject 100 mcg of each of a GHRP and GRF as desired. This is a general guideline. I've heard of people injecting crazy amounts (like 5000 mcg of ipamorelin at a time! wow!) and getting unusual but favorable results. This isn't my cup of tea. Mainly because I think the "normal" doses are effective, but also because I'm not down with spending $40+ for a single shot of anything!
A typical dosing protocol would look something like this: first thing upon waking (empty stomach only- carbs and fat in the system tend to blunt the gh pulse response!) 100 mcg of ghrp-2 and 100 mcg of mod grf 1-29. Then wait 20-30 min to eat. This time period is a great time to do morning cardio- empty stomach, gh release etc. You can do this type of dose every 3 hours on an empty stomach if desired. But, I think you'd tend to start feeling like a pin cushion after awhile. To see my preferred protocol see here: link
For those that choose to do a dose first thing in the morning, remember, you can have some branched chain aminos in water and sip that to curb hunger/low blood sugar while waiting to eat or while doing cardio!
A couple notes on handling and preparing GH secretogues. GHRPs will keep for quite awhile, even reconstituted (with water added to powder in vial), something like 6-8 weeks is not a big problem imo. But, the GRFs are a bit less stable and will start to degrade after a month or so. If you purchase a large amount such as 10 mg in a vial per item then you can add your bacteriostatic water and then, once diluted, draw up the unneeded portion into an insulin syringe, label and store in the freezer until needed. Only thaw once though to prevent further damage. Repeated thaw, freeze cycles tend to degrade the peptide.
Like I mentioned above, simple bacteriostatic water (purchase on ebay, amazon, wherever) is used to reconstitute these peptides. Often even 10 mg of a particular peptide is sold in 2 ml vials which means that at best you will be able to add 2 ml of bacteriostatic water to the powder. If this is the case then each 100 mcg dose will be 2 unit lines on an insulin syringe. If your peptide is 5 mg of powder and 2 ml vial, then your 100 mcg dose will be 4 unit lines and so on. The most common size is 2 mg of peptide in a 2 ml vial. With 2 ml of bacteriostatic water that makes each 100 mcg dose 10 lines (the tiny lines, not the large numbered fractal lines!).
What can you expect from GH sectretogues?
Mostly expect to manage fat gains. You tend to be able to eat a bit more without putting on fat due to the increased GH release. There are specific pathways this phenomenon works, but basically you tend not to get as fat when bulking and tend to shed fat quicker when dieting. I would put it about on par with using clen or ECA stacks. But, there is no stimulant effect. In fact, the first couple weeks, and especially the first 2-3 doses, I used ipamorelin and cjc-1295 I felt a bit sleepy! Though, I don't tend to get near as sleepy using them these days. Basically it's a stimulant free diet-aid. Your skin should look better, some claim healed joint pain (not in my case- but I do get that from gh itself) and of course, better sleep! Also, you tend to hang onto more actual muscle as you diet.
Dispelling some myths:
GH itself is not great for making muscle gains. The guys you hear about gaining a ton of new body mass with gh are either taking huge doses (unhealthy, dangerous and expensive!) or using it with steroids and insulin (a potent combination!). So, with that in mind, don't expect to put on a lot, if any, size using GH secretogues. They work great for what they are supposed to do. But, they aren't going to make you massive, so don't fool yourself. These are "icing on the cake" sorts of drugs to help refine an already experienced bodybuilder's physique, help with contest dieting and general health concerns.
They are a good addition to a post cycle (after taking steroids) period to help hang onto muscle gained- best along with a SARM such as ostarine or S4. More on SARMs to come...
Well, there's the basics. I probably left a few things out. Feel free to comment or contact me via email or on professionalmuscle.com with questions. Though these particular drugs are pretty safe in general, this is not something I'd recommend for a beginner or a very young person unless there was a specific medical need. 1) Young people won't see much from it unless they are GH or igf-1 deficient and 2) Get the most out of your natural potential before throwing these fancy items in the mix!
"This is a good question. Basically you have a few different categories:
GH Secretogues: ghrp-2, ghrp-6, and Ipamorelin are all popular growth hormone releasing peptides. When combined with a GRF (Growth hormone releasing factor) like mod grf 1-29 or cjc-1295 without DAC, then you get a great synergy and GH release from the pituitary. The basic desired dose is 1 mcg per kg of bodyweight. For me that's 100 mcg ea. up to 3 x day.
IGF-1 Drugs: igf1-lr3, igf-1 rh, des (1-3) igf-1, mgf, peg-mgf, igf2-lr3. Two schools of thought/methods of action for these drugs-
1) Insulin-like properties: The longer acting drugs are best for this: igf1-lr3 and peg-mgf. These produce results similar to humalog (used pre or post workout) but possibly with less of a tendency to desensitize the body to insulin.
2) Hyperplasia/site-enhancement: The shorter acting drugs are better for this. I just wrote all about this on my blog (see signature link). But, basically, a lot of the site-enhancement people saw early on was with igf-1 rh which is straight igf-1. DES (1-3) igf-1 is a new superior form of this. Again, check out my blog for more details!
Then there are the sarms- selective androgen receptor modulators. These work to build muscle in the same way as testosterone and other steroids but without the androgenic sides/less shut down of the hpta. Great for bridging imo.
This is just the very very basics. But, there is tons of info on this site and all over the web. This is my 2 cents only. No one knows it all! So, keep reading and keep learning! "
More on GH Secretogues:
Now, obviously I covered some bare minimums on the topic including a bit about igf-1 drugs. Since I've covered the igf-1 drugs so extensively (or at least long-windedly ) here before I want to focus on the GH secretogues.
First of all let me be clear that I am not a chemist or scientist and have no medical background. I'm your basic over-thinking gym-rat hobbyist that has read hours upon hours of material and often used himself as a test subject in trying to understand how all these things work as well as corresponding with others doing the same. There are guys more knowledgeable and guys with more experience. I'm just offering my two cents for what it's worth. Ok, now with that out of the way...
There are many many different chemical research supply store-fronts on the internet where you can purchase GH secretogues. For years I wondered, like many others, just what these GH peptides were, what they were supposed to do and how well they actually worked.
Basically, there are two forms of GH secretogues: GHRPs (growth hormone releasing peptides) and GRFs (also known as GHRH- growth hormone releasing hormones).
The GHRP drugs include: GHRP-2, GHRP-6 and Ipamorelin All of these stimulate the release of growth hormone by the pituitary but have their subtle differences. GHRP-2 causes less appetite stimulus than GHRP-6 for example. But, both GHRP-2 and GHRP-6 tend to raise cortisol and prolactin levels if over-used (i.e. in more-than-needed amounts!) vs. Ipamorelin which doesn't affect hunger, cortisol or prolactin nearly as much. So, Ipamorelin is the state of the art drug of choice for the GHRPs but all are worthwhile and have pretty much the same effects.
The GRF/GHRH drugs include: Mod GRF 1-29, cjc-1293, cjc-1295 without DAC and cjc-1295 with DAC. (Sermorelin would be mentioned but is an outdated GRF that only lasts a few minutes in the system-not quite what we're looking for.) These drugs stimulate growth hormone release like the GHRPs do, but through a slightly different pathway. Again, I'm not a scientist so don't ask me to explain it. All I know is that Mod GRF 1-29, cjc-1293 without DAC and cjc-1295 without DAC are all pretty much the same thing and are all effective in pretty much the same way. In other words, go with the cheapest one. The reason we're looking for the drugs withoutDAC is that the DAC modification is made to make the drug's effects very long lasting in the system- days vs hours. For male GH release patterns this is not what we want. We want a powerful "burst" or pulse of GH and then a return to baseline. Constantly elevated, and level GH patterns are somewhat counterproductive and more along the lines of natural female GH release patterns that aren't as well suited for bodybuilding purposes.
(Great explanation of the various GRF drugs and origins found here.)
The basic accepted idea is that taking a GHRP and a GRF together is a lot more powerful than taking, say, 2 times the dose of either on their own. They have a synergistic effect where 1 + 1 = 3 (or something to that effect). It would be financially foolish not to take advantage of this. The max dose people generally take of either one of these is 1 mcg per 1 kg of bodyweight. So a 220 lb bodybuilder would inject 100 mcg of each of a GHRP and GRF as desired. This is a general guideline. I've heard of people injecting crazy amounts (like 5000 mcg of ipamorelin at a time! wow!) and getting unusual but favorable results. This isn't my cup of tea. Mainly because I think the "normal" doses are effective, but also because I'm not down with spending $40+ for a single shot of anything!
A typical dosing protocol would look something like this: first thing upon waking (empty stomach only- carbs and fat in the system tend to blunt the gh pulse response!) 100 mcg of ghrp-2 and 100 mcg of mod grf 1-29. Then wait 20-30 min to eat. This time period is a great time to do morning cardio- empty stomach, gh release etc. You can do this type of dose every 3 hours on an empty stomach if desired. But, I think you'd tend to start feeling like a pin cushion after awhile. To see my preferred protocol see here: link
For those that choose to do a dose first thing in the morning, remember, you can have some branched chain aminos in water and sip that to curb hunger/low blood sugar while waiting to eat or while doing cardio!
A couple notes on handling and preparing GH secretogues. GHRPs will keep for quite awhile, even reconstituted (with water added to powder in vial), something like 6-8 weeks is not a big problem imo. But, the GRFs are a bit less stable and will start to degrade after a month or so. If you purchase a large amount such as 10 mg in a vial per item then you can add your bacteriostatic water and then, once diluted, draw up the unneeded portion into an insulin syringe, label and store in the freezer until needed. Only thaw once though to prevent further damage. Repeated thaw, freeze cycles tend to degrade the peptide.
Like I mentioned above, simple bacteriostatic water (purchase on ebay, amazon, wherever) is used to reconstitute these peptides. Often even 10 mg of a particular peptide is sold in 2 ml vials which means that at best you will be able to add 2 ml of bacteriostatic water to the powder. If this is the case then each 100 mcg dose will be 2 unit lines on an insulin syringe. If your peptide is 5 mg of powder and 2 ml vial, then your 100 mcg dose will be 4 unit lines and so on. The most common size is 2 mg of peptide in a 2 ml vial. With 2 ml of bacteriostatic water that makes each 100 mcg dose 10 lines (the tiny lines, not the large numbered fractal lines!).
What can you expect from GH sectretogues?
Mostly expect to manage fat gains. You tend to be able to eat a bit more without putting on fat due to the increased GH release. There are specific pathways this phenomenon works, but basically you tend not to get as fat when bulking and tend to shed fat quicker when dieting. I would put it about on par with using clen or ECA stacks. But, there is no stimulant effect. In fact, the first couple weeks, and especially the first 2-3 doses, I used ipamorelin and cjc-1295 I felt a bit sleepy! Though, I don't tend to get near as sleepy using them these days. Basically it's a stimulant free diet-aid. Your skin should look better, some claim healed joint pain (not in my case- but I do get that from gh itself) and of course, better sleep! Also, you tend to hang onto more actual muscle as you diet.
Dispelling some myths:
GH itself is not great for making muscle gains. The guys you hear about gaining a ton of new body mass with gh are either taking huge doses (unhealthy, dangerous and expensive!) or using it with steroids and insulin (a potent combination!). So, with that in mind, don't expect to put on a lot, if any, size using GH secretogues. They work great for what they are supposed to do. But, they aren't going to make you massive, so don't fool yourself. These are "icing on the cake" sorts of drugs to help refine an already experienced bodybuilder's physique, help with contest dieting and general health concerns.
They are a good addition to a post cycle (after taking steroids) period to help hang onto muscle gained- best along with a SARM such as ostarine or S4. More on SARMs to come...
Well, there's the basics. I probably left a few things out. Feel free to comment or contact me via email or on professionalmuscle.com with questions. Though these particular drugs are pretty safe in general, this is not something I'd recommend for a beginner or a very young person unless there was a specific medical need. 1) Young people won't see much from it unless they are GH or igf-1 deficient and 2) Get the most out of your natural potential before throwing these fancy items in the mix!
Wednesday, November 24, 2010
Site Enhancement Theory using DES (1-3) IGF-1
I think a lot is being overlooked in the realm of igf-1 drugs and how to use them for hyperplasia (the growing of new muscle tissue). Why in the world would someone take peg-mgf and igf1-lr3 together to induce hyperplasia or for site-enhancement (injecting into a particular muscle to specifically make it grow lartger)? I say this because they are both long acting- mgf initiates the hyperplasia process (activation of satellite cells/proliferation) but inhibits the final phase (differentiation). Igf-1 causes differentiation, but inhibits proliferation. Take a long acting version of each and what the hell have you got? A cluster f#*^ where nothing productive is happening except a lot of insulin-like effects.
Plus, mgf is only produced, naturally, within the muscle cells themselves, never found systemically. So, when we inject it, we're basically "hoping" some of it will get into the intended muscle cells and still work as intended. Outside of the actual cells themselves it just acts like, and is recognized as igf-1! So, again, no matter how we approach injecting mgf, the results are iffy at best because even if some gets into the cells and starts the proliferation process on satellite cells, whatever is left over on the outside of the cells (on the igf-1 receptors) will be causing differentiation and inhibiting proliferation- all at the same time!!
Do these two processes (proliferation and differentiation) interfere with eachother? Of course they do. How else would they work in tandem in a natural environment. So, what do we do then? How do we get proliferation without accidentally causing differentiation by mistake?
Skip to the end in bold for the short answer to this.
I've mentioned this before. But, the more I think about it and it sinks in, the more I believe it makes sense. It's clear that mgf is most effective when produced within the muscle cells themselves. Mgf is produced during a workout- especially on the eccentric (lowering) portion of an exercise movement. This resulting production of mgf is one of the ways we grow and recover from hard training. It's basically a response to micro-trauma within the muscle.
There is only "so much" we can do to induce proliferation (activation of satellite cells) via injection with mgf or peg-mgf. And, having a longer-acting mgf like peg-mgf will not necessarilly lead to greater results when it comes to hypertrophy. All the successful studies on mgf were done with viral techniques where the muscles were programmed (by introduction of a virus) to produce mgf. This is where we see the 20% muscle weight gains etc. not by injection. Unfortunately, we gym rats don't have access (that I know of) to that kind of technology!
But, there are alternatives. Years back Pat Arnold talked about an alternative site-enhancement technique using a solution containing lambda carrageenan- a seaweed extract usually injected into meat products to provide a thicker, heavier product. Basically scientists injected a solution of various % of lambda carrageenan in a controlled way to produce specific muscle damage in leg muscles and tendons in mice. At some percentages the muscle damage was too great, at others it didn't produce a noticeable effect. But, at certain percentages the right amount of muscle damage was caused triggering a steady release of mgf in an effort to repair the damage. (You'll have to forgive me, but I can't seem to find the original study for the life of me! Hunt around on Google if you want. There are similar studies out there. The original was done in Japan and written in Japanese...)
I was able to get ahold of some lambda carrageenan powder and I did my own little experiment. To be honest, so many injections were needed and such a high volume of product that I got tired (not to mention sore!) of messing with it before I saw any real measurable results. But, years later when I gave syntherol (and oil based injectable site-enhancement product) a try, the constant dull-ache from the injections reminded my of my brief experiment with lambda carrageenan. See, there's nothing inherent in carrageenan itself that causes mgf expression. It's just an irritant- but, a controllable one. You can obviously get the same kind of inflamation from a shot of test prop or some other injectable like syntherol (or for that matter a well-made home brew, but that's another topic).
What stands out to me about the scientific study on mice is that even the lower doses of the carrageenan solution had some effect and elicited some mgf expression, but it wasn't enough to have substantial results. That tells me that mgf expression is somewhat determined by the amount of irritation caused. As long as there isn't too much to "come back from" where the muscle is seriously compromised, there should be enough mgf expression to both repair the damage and over-compensate by creating new tissue. It's my theory that this is a part of what makes syntherol site-enhancement techniques effective. The other parts are increased blood flow/nutrient uptake and stretching of the muscle fascia.
With everyone looking for the longest acting igf-1 drug available it appears the thinking is "whatever lasts the longest is most effective!" But, that's not true in this case. While drugs like peg-mgf and igf1-lr3 will give you the best insulin like effects (when compared to their shorter-acting counterparts) we don't necessarily want to affect our system for long periods of time with igf-1! For one thing it's dangerous. Many of the receptors are in the intestines and vital organs. If there is a cancer or growth present, igf-1 may/will cause that to grow at an increased rate. Plus, as it concerns site-enhancement/hyperplasia, igf-1's job is to cause "differentiation"- the part of the process that tells newly activated satellite cells to become muscle! If an igf-1 is constantly present in the system, then the actual activation of those satellite cells is inhibited!
What we want is to do is: 1) Induce proliferation (activation) of satellite cells and keep that going as long and as often as possible. 2) Induce differentiation to help form new muscle tissue briefly but often.
My basic theory is to add a schedule of using DES (1-3) igf-1 to a "normal" syntherol protocol. Using the syntherol, in conjunction with hard training and a good anabolic environment, will (in theory) cause mgf to be produced within the temporarily damaged muscle. 1/2 hr to 1 hr after said muscle is trained, a dose of DES (1-3) Igf-1 is injected into the specific muscle to induce differentiation. With the DES being out of your system within a half hour or so, this should allow the muscle to go back to producing more mgf and inducing more proliferation/activation of more satellite cells- do to continued irritation from injections of syntherol and subsequent training.
So, let's say you are injecting your bis and tris with syntherol. They are sore and swollen, but you are still doing your regular training. You can hit each on arm day, bis on back day, and tris on chest/shoulder day etc. with DES (1-3) IGF-1. However you work it, I think the theory makes some sense. Let me know what you think.
Plus, mgf is only produced, naturally, within the muscle cells themselves, never found systemically. So, when we inject it, we're basically "hoping" some of it will get into the intended muscle cells and still work as intended. Outside of the actual cells themselves it just acts like, and is recognized as igf-1! So, again, no matter how we approach injecting mgf, the results are iffy at best because even if some gets into the cells and starts the proliferation process on satellite cells, whatever is left over on the outside of the cells (on the igf-1 receptors) will be causing differentiation and inhibiting proliferation- all at the same time!!
Do these two processes (proliferation and differentiation) interfere with eachother? Of course they do. How else would they work in tandem in a natural environment. So, what do we do then? How do we get proliferation without accidentally causing differentiation by mistake?
Skip to the end in bold for the short answer to this.
I've mentioned this before. But, the more I think about it and it sinks in, the more I believe it makes sense. It's clear that mgf is most effective when produced within the muscle cells themselves. Mgf is produced during a workout- especially on the eccentric (lowering) portion of an exercise movement. This resulting production of mgf is one of the ways we grow and recover from hard training. It's basically a response to micro-trauma within the muscle.
There is only "so much" we can do to induce proliferation (activation of satellite cells) via injection with mgf or peg-mgf. And, having a longer-acting mgf like peg-mgf will not necessarilly lead to greater results when it comes to hypertrophy. All the successful studies on mgf were done with viral techniques where the muscles were programmed (by introduction of a virus) to produce mgf. This is where we see the 20% muscle weight gains etc. not by injection. Unfortunately, we gym rats don't have access (that I know of) to that kind of technology!
But, there are alternatives. Years back Pat Arnold talked about an alternative site-enhancement technique using a solution containing lambda carrageenan- a seaweed extract usually injected into meat products to provide a thicker, heavier product. Basically scientists injected a solution of various % of lambda carrageenan in a controlled way to produce specific muscle damage in leg muscles and tendons in mice. At some percentages the muscle damage was too great, at others it didn't produce a noticeable effect. But, at certain percentages the right amount of muscle damage was caused triggering a steady release of mgf in an effort to repair the damage. (You'll have to forgive me, but I can't seem to find the original study for the life of me! Hunt around on Google if you want. There are similar studies out there. The original was done in Japan and written in Japanese...)
I was able to get ahold of some lambda carrageenan powder and I did my own little experiment. To be honest, so many injections were needed and such a high volume of product that I got tired (not to mention sore!) of messing with it before I saw any real measurable results. But, years later when I gave syntherol (and oil based injectable site-enhancement product) a try, the constant dull-ache from the injections reminded my of my brief experiment with lambda carrageenan. See, there's nothing inherent in carrageenan itself that causes mgf expression. It's just an irritant- but, a controllable one. You can obviously get the same kind of inflamation from a shot of test prop or some other injectable like syntherol (or for that matter a well-made home brew, but that's another topic).
What stands out to me about the scientific study on mice is that even the lower doses of the carrageenan solution had some effect and elicited some mgf expression, but it wasn't enough to have substantial results. That tells me that mgf expression is somewhat determined by the amount of irritation caused. As long as there isn't too much to "come back from" where the muscle is seriously compromised, there should be enough mgf expression to both repair the damage and over-compensate by creating new tissue. It's my theory that this is a part of what makes syntherol site-enhancement techniques effective. The other parts are increased blood flow/nutrient uptake and stretching of the muscle fascia.
With everyone looking for the longest acting igf-1 drug available it appears the thinking is "whatever lasts the longest is most effective!" But, that's not true in this case. While drugs like peg-mgf and igf1-lr3 will give you the best insulin like effects (when compared to their shorter-acting counterparts) we don't necessarily want to affect our system for long periods of time with igf-1! For one thing it's dangerous. Many of the receptors are in the intestines and vital organs. If there is a cancer or growth present, igf-1 may/will cause that to grow at an increased rate. Plus, as it concerns site-enhancement/hyperplasia, igf-1's job is to cause "differentiation"- the part of the process that tells newly activated satellite cells to become muscle! If an igf-1 is constantly present in the system, then the actual activation of those satellite cells is inhibited!
What we want is to do is: 1) Induce proliferation (activation) of satellite cells and keep that going as long and as often as possible. 2) Induce differentiation to help form new muscle tissue briefly but often.
My basic theory is to add a schedule of using DES (1-3) igf-1 to a "normal" syntherol protocol. Using the syntherol, in conjunction with hard training and a good anabolic environment, will (in theory) cause mgf to be produced within the temporarily damaged muscle. 1/2 hr to 1 hr after said muscle is trained, a dose of DES (1-3) Igf-1 is injected into the specific muscle to induce differentiation. With the DES being out of your system within a half hour or so, this should allow the muscle to go back to producing more mgf and inducing more proliferation/activation of more satellite cells- do to continued irritation from injections of syntherol and subsequent training.
So, let's say you are injecting your bis and tris with syntherol. They are sore and swollen, but you are still doing your regular training. You can hit each on arm day, bis on back day, and tris on chest/shoulder day etc. with DES (1-3) IGF-1. However you work it, I think the theory makes some sense. Let me know what you think.
Saturday, November 20, 2010
Controlling Insulin Response/Gastric Emptying for Accelerated Fat loss
I was approached by a friend awhile back to help research the effects of GLP-1 agonists on blood sugar, glucose disposal and any other effect that may be of interest to gym rats everywhere. Namely, said friend was looking for an alternative to insulin use (for bodybuilding purposes) that was safer and did not decrease insulin sensitivity. When he discovered that GLP-1 agonists (such as the prescription diabetes drug Byetta) actually increased insulin sensitivity as well as helped control blood sugar he believed he'd found the bodybuilder's holy grail of safe and effective glucose disposal agents.
Unfortunately, after some initial research on my part we discovered that drugs like Byetta were simply not suited for putting on muscle mass. I cover this in the article at the bottom of this page- please scroll down and read all about it if interested. Furthermore, he informed me awhile later of the pending class-action law suits against the makers of Byetta and similar drugs that made claims of kidney failure and other serious/dangerous side effects! This is a big no no for gym rats who already may be experimenting with various supplements that have an impact on the kidneys all their own. Creatine, excess protein, even advil for pain all effect the kidneys. Not to mention the effects of heavy/intense weight training. The last thing a bodybuilder wants is another drug or supplement that negatively impacts a vital organ!! So, please consider this when reading my article below and understand I'm sticking my foot in my mouth with my original enthusiasm for the product!
Over the years I've heard of various techniques for lowering blood sugar naturally, controlling insulin spikes and so on. A ketogenic (low-carb) diet will both lower blood-sugar and increase insulin sensitivity. If you think about it, it makes common sense, you don't have a lot of sugar/carbs coming in to spike insulin levels, over time your body adjusts to these amounts and "makes due" with less. I've actually had my very best fat loss results using a ketogenic diet. But, I find it hard to gain muscle on a keto diet.
Another technique is using various spices and compounds like cinnamon. A teaspoon of cinnamon in your protein shake is said to have a variety of healthful benefits- including lowering blood sugar. I'm not certain what mechanism this is achieved by, but it may be due to slower gastric emptying- i.e. how fast food/nutrients are digesting and entering the blood stream. Along that same line of thought, adding in extra fiber to the diet will slow gastric emptying with any meal. Want that pasta to digest more slowly? Add some slowly digesting cheese like low-fat cottage cheese. And/or, have a drink with a bit of flavored (but sugar-free) metameucil with your meal (no, I wouldn't do this either! lol). These are all good techniques, but this next is my favorite, go-to way to control insulin spikes.
Drum roll please.....
Add vinegar (1-2 tablespoons) to 8 oz of water, low-cal juice, or what-have-you and drink before, during or after your meal. This one comes to me by the way of an Rxmuscle.com board member, Arabmuscle. Props bro! Your suggestion has helped me immensely! Here's a link to his thread so you can read his post for yourself. It's good stuff!
http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?t=42990
Now, I'm sure a lot of people are thinking, "Vinegar!? WTF? I'm not drinking that!" Ok, here's the deal: Get some good-tasting vinegar and put it in low-calorie juice! You can get a half gallon of diet cran-grape at wally world for $2, dump 6-8 oz of Pomengranate infused Red wine vinegar and you will barely even notice the vinegar in it! Some say you must use organic apple cider vinegar to get these effects. Are they correct? No. Plenty of people ARE getting results using other types of vinegar. Just look for a 5% acidity and we've got our "magic" ingredient. But, if you want to use organic ACV, go for it. It tastes great. Put it in some sugar free tea, or a small glass of apple cider with your meal!
My personal results so far are that I've lost 2% body fat, or about 5 lbs., with little to no change in diet over the course of 3.5 weeks. This is while only using the vinegar at about 50% of my meals, but generally the higher carb meals. This is where the technique shines. It's giving you the benefit of controlled blood sugar- ala a ketogenic diet!- but without removing the carbs. So you don't feel sleepy after a meal and you've got all your fuel for work, play etc. Good stuff!
Ok, here's the original article I put out on byetta etc. just for reference. Remember the health risks/concerns I listed about it that have since some to my attention!! I wouldn't use byetta at this point given the new info. But, it's interesting to keep an eye on the research and, hopefully, we'll have a better, safer drug in the future that works at least as well!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GLP-1 Agonists and why we Gym Rats Might be Interested
GLP-1 (Glucagon-like peptide) is a strange bird. It has a very short half-life of 2 minutes in the body and while it increases insulin secretion it also slows gastric emptying. Someone asked me recently if it would make a good replacement for insulin as used by bodybuilders. And, the short answer to that is no. Since it slows gastric emptying there'd be no call for using it as you would humalog or humalin-r pre or post workout. The carbs, aminos, creatine etc. just wouldn't get into the system fast enough to work their magic as they do with regular insulin. But, a better explanation is that it would be to insulin as a good PCT is to a heavy steroid cycle. I'll get into that in a minute. Plus, because of its short half-life it is basically useless in and of itself. What we want is a good GLP-1 "agonist" and that's where exenatide comes in.
Exenatide (trade name Byetta) was discovered in the saliva of gila monsters and is actually found concentrated in the tails. Hence the slang term for it "lizard spit!" lol. It only shares a 50% identical amino acid sequence to GLP-1 thus making it an "agonist" or promoter of GLP-1 vs actually being a copy or analogue. The benefit to all this is that because of its structure it produces many of the same positive effects but is prevented by being broken down by GPP-4, the protein that is present throughout the body that destroys GLP-1, so quickly. Thus exenatide has a much longer half life and is injected only twice per day in a similar way that we use our GH secretogues: subcuteneous injections, 1 hr before a meal on an empty stomach.
Now, for a bodybuilder, what are the benefits of exenatide?
1) Induces Insulin secretion/Increases insulin sensitivity- This is important after a period of use of GH, insulin, IGF-1, steroids etc. All which tend to decrease insulin sensitivity over time. Think about it: When we come off a long steroid cycle we use something to get the "boys" working again and the testosterone flowing. With insulin being the most anabolic of all hormones shouldn't we also seek to maximize our own natural production and sensitivity?
2) Slows gastric emptying- This happens because of exenatide's ability to block glucagon release. Hence, we get a sense of being fuller, longer. And, essentially we are. This is the value we derive from eating whole wheat products vs high glycemic white bread. With a slower release of nutrients into the system we get a less "jagged" insulin spike = less carbs stored as fat! But, with the effect of increased insulin sensitivity, our bodies make better use of what glucose is in the system, i.e. makes us more "efficient" at using what we eat! A word of caution here. Since exenatide slows gastric emptying, it should never, ever be used in direct conjunction (at the same time) with insulin. While you are trying to get those carbs into your system to prevent a blood glucose crash, exenetide will be slowing down the release of those nutrients in your gut! Big trouble potential!!
With these two properties, exenatide appears to be a great product for use during a pre-contest diet that includes, and especially one that cycles, carbs. Since its effects are glucose dependent (i.e. the more carbs you eat, the more insulin is released) you will likely be able to tolerate more carbs while dieting than before while yet remaining insulin sensitive and putting them to use- though I, obviously, wouldn't try to eat more carbs than you need in this situation. In various trials people lost an average of 7 lbs over the course of some 26 weeks. But, these were average schlubs, not bodybuilders actually trying to burn fat and using other supplements along the way. Combining exenatide with a little bit of t-3 and a healthy dose of test might be a great combo while tackling a tough contest diet. Just a thought.
So, if you want to maximize insulin sensitivity and carb utilization, exenatide may be an interesting option at some point. Though it wouldn't be an ideal candidate for bulking/gaining cycles (the slow gastric emptying will make you actually want to eat less), it may be just what the doctor ordered while trimming off excess fat after a bulk cycle. The usual peptide side-effect of occasional nausea was reported (though I'm used to that with mt2 and other peps). But, for the most part it has been well tolerated and would seem to be, overall, a "healthy" drug as it evens out blood glucose spikes and tends to help trim the waistline.
I haven't tried it yet. But, when I get the chance I'm gonna give it a go just based on the little bit of research I've done. Go out and google it. Read about other options for these benefits and I'll think you'll see why I'm talking about this drug. It's a kind of "middle of the road" thing: it's more powerful/effective than metformin but with much, much less risk of going hypoglycemic as you might with actual insulin. The half-life is much longer than GLP-1 but shorter than a couple other GLP-1 analogues that are in the works. These analogues often last for a day and some for up to ten days! No thanks, I'd like to have a bit more control over what my system is doing. i.e. if I wanted to have some insulin pre-workout, I still could with exenatide. I'd just schedule doses far enough away that they didn't overlap in any way- exenatide 7 am, humalog 4 pm pre workout, exenatide 8:30 pm... or something like that.. Not recomending that, but I'd just rather have some control and know it'd be out of my system in a matter of hours vs. days.
Unfortunately, after some initial research on my part we discovered that drugs like Byetta were simply not suited for putting on muscle mass. I cover this in the article at the bottom of this page- please scroll down and read all about it if interested. Furthermore, he informed me awhile later of the pending class-action law suits against the makers of Byetta and similar drugs that made claims of kidney failure and other serious/dangerous side effects! This is a big no no for gym rats who already may be experimenting with various supplements that have an impact on the kidneys all their own. Creatine, excess protein, even advil for pain all effect the kidneys. Not to mention the effects of heavy/intense weight training. The last thing a bodybuilder wants is another drug or supplement that negatively impacts a vital organ!! So, please consider this when reading my article below and understand I'm sticking my foot in my mouth with my original enthusiasm for the product!
Over the years I've heard of various techniques for lowering blood sugar naturally, controlling insulin spikes and so on. A ketogenic (low-carb) diet will both lower blood-sugar and increase insulin sensitivity. If you think about it, it makes common sense, you don't have a lot of sugar/carbs coming in to spike insulin levels, over time your body adjusts to these amounts and "makes due" with less. I've actually had my very best fat loss results using a ketogenic diet. But, I find it hard to gain muscle on a keto diet.
Another technique is using various spices and compounds like cinnamon. A teaspoon of cinnamon in your protein shake is said to have a variety of healthful benefits- including lowering blood sugar. I'm not certain what mechanism this is achieved by, but it may be due to slower gastric emptying- i.e. how fast food/nutrients are digesting and entering the blood stream. Along that same line of thought, adding in extra fiber to the diet will slow gastric emptying with any meal. Want that pasta to digest more slowly? Add some slowly digesting cheese like low-fat cottage cheese. And/or, have a drink with a bit of flavored (but sugar-free) metameucil with your meal (no, I wouldn't do this either! lol). These are all good techniques, but this next is my favorite, go-to way to control insulin spikes.
Drum roll please.....
Add vinegar (1-2 tablespoons) to 8 oz of water, low-cal juice, or what-have-you and drink before, during or after your meal. This one comes to me by the way of an Rxmuscle.com board member, Arabmuscle. Props bro! Your suggestion has helped me immensely! Here's a link to his thread so you can read his post for yourself. It's good stuff!
http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?t=42990
Now, I'm sure a lot of people are thinking, "Vinegar!? WTF? I'm not drinking that!" Ok, here's the deal: Get some good-tasting vinegar and put it in low-calorie juice! You can get a half gallon of diet cran-grape at wally world for $2, dump 6-8 oz of Pomengranate infused Red wine vinegar and you will barely even notice the vinegar in it! Some say you must use organic apple cider vinegar to get these effects. Are they correct? No. Plenty of people ARE getting results using other types of vinegar. Just look for a 5% acidity and we've got our "magic" ingredient. But, if you want to use organic ACV, go for it. It tastes great. Put it in some sugar free tea, or a small glass of apple cider with your meal!
My personal results so far are that I've lost 2% body fat, or about 5 lbs., with little to no change in diet over the course of 3.5 weeks. This is while only using the vinegar at about 50% of my meals, but generally the higher carb meals. This is where the technique shines. It's giving you the benefit of controlled blood sugar- ala a ketogenic diet!- but without removing the carbs. So you don't feel sleepy after a meal and you've got all your fuel for work, play etc. Good stuff!
Ok, here's the original article I put out on byetta etc. just for reference. Remember the health risks/concerns I listed about it that have since some to my attention!! I wouldn't use byetta at this point given the new info. But, it's interesting to keep an eye on the research and, hopefully, we'll have a better, safer drug in the future that works at least as well!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GLP-1 Agonists and why we Gym Rats Might be Interested
GLP-1 (Glucagon-like peptide) is a strange bird. It has a very short half-life of 2 minutes in the body and while it increases insulin secretion it also slows gastric emptying. Someone asked me recently if it would make a good replacement for insulin as used by bodybuilders. And, the short answer to that is no. Since it slows gastric emptying there'd be no call for using it as you would humalog or humalin-r pre or post workout. The carbs, aminos, creatine etc. just wouldn't get into the system fast enough to work their magic as they do with regular insulin. But, a better explanation is that it would be to insulin as a good PCT is to a heavy steroid cycle. I'll get into that in a minute. Plus, because of its short half-life it is basically useless in and of itself. What we want is a good GLP-1 "agonist" and that's where exenatide comes in.
Exenatide (trade name Byetta) was discovered in the saliva of gila monsters and is actually found concentrated in the tails. Hence the slang term for it "lizard spit!" lol. It only shares a 50% identical amino acid sequence to GLP-1 thus making it an "agonist" or promoter of GLP-1 vs actually being a copy or analogue. The benefit to all this is that because of its structure it produces many of the same positive effects but is prevented by being broken down by GPP-4, the protein that is present throughout the body that destroys GLP-1, so quickly. Thus exenatide has a much longer half life and is injected only twice per day in a similar way that we use our GH secretogues: subcuteneous injections, 1 hr before a meal on an empty stomach.
Now, for a bodybuilder, what are the benefits of exenatide?
1) Induces Insulin secretion/Increases insulin sensitivity- This is important after a period of use of GH, insulin, IGF-1, steroids etc. All which tend to decrease insulin sensitivity over time. Think about it: When we come off a long steroid cycle we use something to get the "boys" working again and the testosterone flowing. With insulin being the most anabolic of all hormones shouldn't we also seek to maximize our own natural production and sensitivity?
2) Slows gastric emptying- This happens because of exenatide's ability to block glucagon release. Hence, we get a sense of being fuller, longer. And, essentially we are. This is the value we derive from eating whole wheat products vs high glycemic white bread. With a slower release of nutrients into the system we get a less "jagged" insulin spike = less carbs stored as fat! But, with the effect of increased insulin sensitivity, our bodies make better use of what glucose is in the system, i.e. makes us more "efficient" at using what we eat! A word of caution here. Since exenatide slows gastric emptying, it should never, ever be used in direct conjunction (at the same time) with insulin. While you are trying to get those carbs into your system to prevent a blood glucose crash, exenetide will be slowing down the release of those nutrients in your gut! Big trouble potential!!
With these two properties, exenatide appears to be a great product for use during a pre-contest diet that includes, and especially one that cycles, carbs. Since its effects are glucose dependent (i.e. the more carbs you eat, the more insulin is released) you will likely be able to tolerate more carbs while dieting than before while yet remaining insulin sensitive and putting them to use- though I, obviously, wouldn't try to eat more carbs than you need in this situation. In various trials people lost an average of 7 lbs over the course of some 26 weeks. But, these were average schlubs, not bodybuilders actually trying to burn fat and using other supplements along the way. Combining exenatide with a little bit of t-3 and a healthy dose of test might be a great combo while tackling a tough contest diet. Just a thought.
So, if you want to maximize insulin sensitivity and carb utilization, exenatide may be an interesting option at some point. Though it wouldn't be an ideal candidate for bulking/gaining cycles (the slow gastric emptying will make you actually want to eat less), it may be just what the doctor ordered while trimming off excess fat after a bulk cycle. The usual peptide side-effect of occasional nausea was reported (though I'm used to that with mt2 and other peps). But, for the most part it has been well tolerated and would seem to be, overall, a "healthy" drug as it evens out blood glucose spikes and tends to help trim the waistline.
I haven't tried it yet. But, when I get the chance I'm gonna give it a go just based on the little bit of research I've done. Go out and google it. Read about other options for these benefits and I'll think you'll see why I'm talking about this drug. It's a kind of "middle of the road" thing: it's more powerful/effective than metformin but with much, much less risk of going hypoglycemic as you might with actual insulin. The half-life is much longer than GLP-1 but shorter than a couple other GLP-1 analogues that are in the works. These analogues often last for a day and some for up to ten days! No thanks, I'd like to have a bit more control over what my system is doing. i.e. if I wanted to have some insulin pre-workout, I still could with exenatide. I'd just schedule doses far enough away that they didn't overlap in any way- exenatide 7 am, humalog 4 pm pre workout, exenatide 8:30 pm... or something like that.. Not recomending that, but I'd just rather have some control and know it'd be out of my system in a matter of hours vs. days.
Melatonin + GH Peptides for Double Results! (Updated)
Update and Note:
Perhaps a better/more appropriate title for this article would be:
Melatonin + GH peptides for possibly improved GH release!
That title sounds a little silly. But, I feel a little silly having not researched this matter more fully before drawing conclusions. While I still believe there is something to this protocol- as I experienced results with it that caught my attention before even finding any research on it- there is much more to the matter than what I have posted simply within the article. If I get a bit more info in the future I'll update with whatever I can!
There has been a bit of debate over whether this info is valid when using a GHRP in addition to a GHRH. I want anyone reading this to take a look at this thread on needtobuildmuscle.com
In it, member JKlooking talks about why he disagrees with my findings on this. Basically, the original study I quoted from, posted here, used melatonin + GHRH to induce a much greater GH pulse release. JK's contention is that when you add in a GHRP to the equation you are basically making the melatonin redundant. He gives some good background for why he thinks this and that's why I want you to take a look at his info and draw your own conclusions.
I still believe that the melatonin has an effect by inhibiting somatostatin, or possibly through some other mechanism, and adds efficiency to the overall equation even in the presence of GHRP. Though a case could be made against this, I still haven't seen anything that directly refutes my theory (or definitively proves it either in all fairness!). Plus, my original enthusiasm for this topic was sparked by results I was getting from this method before I even looked into the "science" of the matter. I had tried other gh peptide protocols and used varying amount of GH previously, but when I dosed it in this way (naturally using the melatonin as I was doing the protocol before bed!) I got light euphoric feelings at first. And, I experienced increased effects and side-effects that I'd never experienced before!
Although that is totally subjective, it still bears weight for me personally. I'd urge anyone already using GH peptides to give this protocol a try for 3 weeks and see what it does for you. You may or may not experience the slight euphoria that I did. Maybe I'm just sensitive to it in that way, not everyone likely will be. But, I'd be surprised if you didn't see some increased efficiency (better fat burning, better sleep etc) from it!
I guess I'm a stick in the mud when I find something I feel works. But, I really urge you to both read the counterpoints to this argument and to give the protocol a chance in the real world. At worst you'll get a good night's sleep from the melatonin and you can always go back to your old protocol at a later time. For me, it gave me better results than using gh peptides 3 x day on their own or even 5-6 iu of GH every day. My guess is that you'd see something similar doing it my way or using 2 doses of GH peptides with an iu of GH 15 min. afterwards without the melatonin. In other words, if you are already using GH with your peptides in multiple doses per day, this 1 dose per night won't give you better results. It's not a miracle. I do believe it is better with the melatonin than without. That is all.
Perhaps the effects of melatonin in this case have more to do with its actions on GHBPs (growth hormone binding proteins) and higher resulting free GH. I don't know. A study found here talks about using 5 mg of oral melatonin increasing serum GH levels 157% over baseline and noting the differences when measuring free GH vs. other methods. Have a read through if you are interested. There may be more here than previously thought.
For example, consider the way the standard "peptide + GH" dose is done- you take the GH peptides "kicking off" a strong GH pulse and then add in an iu of GH to give it a boost that the body recognizes as a natural part of the original pulse. Perhaps the relatively (when compared to GH peptides) small increase in serum GH seen with oral melatonin increases the total GH output from the full protocol (melatonin, wait 1 hr then gh peptides, 15 min later GH) in a somewhat similar fashion- perhaps adjusting the new baseline or perhaps adding to the amount of free GH by somehow inhibiting the GHBPs.
Again, obviously I'm not a bio-chemist! lol. I'm just a curious gym rat. Like I say, give my methods a try, read all the literature you can on the topic if you wish and then draw your own conclusions! :)
Enjoy the article below!
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I stumbled on this by accident. I always take melatonin before bed and one night I took my melatonin an hour before my ipamorelin (similar to ghrp-6) and cjc-1295 (mod grf 1-29) and noticed what seemed to be a greater feeling of GH release. Euphoria, sleepiness etc. that was more profound than with just one substance or the other. When I added in an iu of GH 15 min later it was even greater. Now I've stopped my other peptide shots and just do this one protocol per night. The side effects (stiff fingers/hands) got to be too great with multiple shots per day. These are side effects generally seen with very high doses of GH alone.
I knew about 1-2 iu of GH promoting a much bigger "pulse" when combined with peptides (Thanks to Datbetrue on professionalmuscle.com). But, I wondered what part melatonin could possibly play in it. But, I had always heard that it created a slight GH release on its own.
Here's what I found-
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1993 Aug;39(2):193-9.
Melatonin stimulates growth hormone secretion through pathways other than the growth hormone-releasing hormone.
Valcavi R, Zini M, Maestroni GJ, Conti A, Portioli I.
2a Divisione di Medicina Interna, Arcispedale S. Maria Nuova, Reggio Emilia, Italy.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: There is evidence that melatonin plays a role in the regulation of GH secretion. The aim of this study was to investigate the neuroendocrine mechanisms by which melatonin modulates GH secretion. Thus we assessed the effect of oral melatonin on the GH responses to GHRH administration and compared the effects of melatonin with those of pyridostigmine, a cholinergic agonist drug which is likely to suppress hypothalamic somatostatin release.
DESIGN: The study consisted of four protocols carried out during the afternoon hours. Study 1: oral melatonin (10 mg) or placebo were administered 60 minutes prior to GHRH (100 micrograms i.v. bolus). Study 2: GHRH (100 micrograms i.v. bolus) or placebo were administered at 0 minutes; oral melatonin or placebo were given at 60 minutes and were followed by a second GHRH stimulus (100 micrograms i.v. bolus) at 120 minutes. Study 3: placebo; oral melatonin (10 mg); oral pyridostigmine (120 mg); melatonin (10 mg) plus pyridostigmine (120 mg) were administered on separate occasions. Study 4: placebo; oral melatonin (10 mg); oral pyridostigmine (120 mg); melatonin (10 mg) plus pyridostigmine (120 mg) were administered on separate occasions 60 minutes prior to a submaximal dose (3 micrograms i.v. bolus) of GHRH.
SUBJECTS: Four groups of eight normal male subjects, ages 22-35 years, were randomly assigned to each protocol.
MEASUREMENTS: Growth hormone was measured by RIA at 15-minute intervals.
RESULTS: Oral melatonin administration had a weak stimulatory effect on GH basal levels. Prior melatonin administration approximately doubled the GH release induced by supramaximal (100 micrograms) or submaximal (3 micrograms) doses of GHRH. Melatonin administration restored the GH response to a second GHRH challenge, given 120 minutes after a first GHRH i.v. bolus. The GH releasing effects of pyridostigmine, either alone or followed by GHRH, were greater than those of melatonin. However, the simultaneous administration of melatonin and pyridostigmine was not followed by any further enhancement of GH release, either in the absence or in the presence of exogenous GHRH.
CONCLUSIONS: Our data indicate that oral administration of melatonin to normal human males increases basal GH release and GH responsiveness to GHRH through the same pathways as pyridostigmine. Therefore it is likely that melatonin plays this facilitatory role at the hypothalamic level by inhibiting endogenous somatostatin release, although with a lower potency than pyridostigmine. The physiological role of melatonin in GH neuroregulation remains to be established.
PMID: 8370132 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I put the pertinent results in bold. Ghrh is essentially the same thing as GRF, just a different name. And, I think that it has the same doubling effect on other growth hormone releasing peptides- such as ipamorelin, ghrp-2 and ghrp-6.
Try it, and see what I mean. You'll get an amazing night's sleep and feel like you just took 10 iu of GH. Plus, this is a very cheap way to get a lot out of very little. The combo costs about $2.10 (providing you are using generic Chinese blues and peptides from a decent source like genesispeptides.net ) for everything per use vs. $15 or so for 10 iu of GH. It's a huge savings and your body recognizes it as a natural "pulse".- for more on this, check out Dat's thread on professionalmuscle.com in the peptide section. (For the record, I didn't pull the main idea for this article from Dat's thread! This is my own little bit of internet research and based on my own experiences.)
Perhaps a better/more appropriate title for this article would be:
Melatonin + GH peptides for possibly improved GH release!
That title sounds a little silly. But, I feel a little silly having not researched this matter more fully before drawing conclusions. While I still believe there is something to this protocol- as I experienced results with it that caught my attention before even finding any research on it- there is much more to the matter than what I have posted simply within the article. If I get a bit more info in the future I'll update with whatever I can!
There has been a bit of debate over whether this info is valid when using a GHRP in addition to a GHRH. I want anyone reading this to take a look at this thread on needtobuildmuscle.com
In it, member JKlooking talks about why he disagrees with my findings on this. Basically, the original study I quoted from, posted here, used melatonin + GHRH to induce a much greater GH pulse release. JK's contention is that when you add in a GHRP to the equation you are basically making the melatonin redundant. He gives some good background for why he thinks this and that's why I want you to take a look at his info and draw your own conclusions.
I still believe that the melatonin has an effect by inhibiting somatostatin, or possibly through some other mechanism, and adds efficiency to the overall equation even in the presence of GHRP. Though a case could be made against this, I still haven't seen anything that directly refutes my theory (or definitively proves it either in all fairness!). Plus, my original enthusiasm for this topic was sparked by results I was getting from this method before I even looked into the "science" of the matter. I had tried other gh peptide protocols and used varying amount of GH previously, but when I dosed it in this way (naturally using the melatonin as I was doing the protocol before bed!) I got light euphoric feelings at first. And, I experienced increased effects and side-effects that I'd never experienced before!
Although that is totally subjective, it still bears weight for me personally. I'd urge anyone already using GH peptides to give this protocol a try for 3 weeks and see what it does for you. You may or may not experience the slight euphoria that I did. Maybe I'm just sensitive to it in that way, not everyone likely will be. But, I'd be surprised if you didn't see some increased efficiency (better fat burning, better sleep etc) from it!
I guess I'm a stick in the mud when I find something I feel works. But, I really urge you to both read the counterpoints to this argument and to give the protocol a chance in the real world. At worst you'll get a good night's sleep from the melatonin and you can always go back to your old protocol at a later time. For me, it gave me better results than using gh peptides 3 x day on their own or even 5-6 iu of GH every day. My guess is that you'd see something similar doing it my way or using 2 doses of GH peptides with an iu of GH 15 min. afterwards without the melatonin. In other words, if you are already using GH with your peptides in multiple doses per day, this 1 dose per night won't give you better results. It's not a miracle. I do believe it is better with the melatonin than without. That is all.
Perhaps the effects of melatonin in this case have more to do with its actions on GHBPs (growth hormone binding proteins) and higher resulting free GH. I don't know. A study found here talks about using 5 mg of oral melatonin increasing serum GH levels 157% over baseline and noting the differences when measuring free GH vs. other methods. Have a read through if you are interested. There may be more here than previously thought.
For example, consider the way the standard "peptide + GH" dose is done- you take the GH peptides "kicking off" a strong GH pulse and then add in an iu of GH to give it a boost that the body recognizes as a natural part of the original pulse. Perhaps the relatively (when compared to GH peptides) small increase in serum GH seen with oral melatonin increases the total GH output from the full protocol (melatonin, wait 1 hr then gh peptides, 15 min later GH) in a somewhat similar fashion- perhaps adjusting the new baseline or perhaps adding to the amount of free GH by somehow inhibiting the GHBPs.
Again, obviously I'm not a bio-chemist! lol. I'm just a curious gym rat. Like I say, give my methods a try, read all the literature you can on the topic if you wish and then draw your own conclusions! :)
Enjoy the article below!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I stumbled on this by accident. I always take melatonin before bed and one night I took my melatonin an hour before my ipamorelin (similar to ghrp-6) and cjc-1295 (mod grf 1-29) and noticed what seemed to be a greater feeling of GH release. Euphoria, sleepiness etc. that was more profound than with just one substance or the other. When I added in an iu of GH 15 min later it was even greater. Now I've stopped my other peptide shots and just do this one protocol per night. The side effects (stiff fingers/hands) got to be too great with multiple shots per day. These are side effects generally seen with very high doses of GH alone.
I knew about 1-2 iu of GH promoting a much bigger "pulse" when combined with peptides (Thanks to Datbetrue on professionalmuscle.com). But, I wondered what part melatonin could possibly play in it. But, I had always heard that it created a slight GH release on its own.
Here's what I found-
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1993 Aug;39(2):193-9.
Melatonin stimulates growth hormone secretion through pathways other than the growth hormone-releasing hormone.
Valcavi R, Zini M, Maestroni GJ, Conti A, Portioli I.
2a Divisione di Medicina Interna, Arcispedale S. Maria Nuova, Reggio Emilia, Italy.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: There is evidence that melatonin plays a role in the regulation of GH secretion. The aim of this study was to investigate the neuroendocrine mechanisms by which melatonin modulates GH secretion. Thus we assessed the effect of oral melatonin on the GH responses to GHRH administration and compared the effects of melatonin with those of pyridostigmine, a cholinergic agonist drug which is likely to suppress hypothalamic somatostatin release.
DESIGN: The study consisted of four protocols carried out during the afternoon hours. Study 1: oral melatonin (10 mg) or placebo were administered 60 minutes prior to GHRH (100 micrograms i.v. bolus). Study 2: GHRH (100 micrograms i.v. bolus) or placebo were administered at 0 minutes; oral melatonin or placebo were given at 60 minutes and were followed by a second GHRH stimulus (100 micrograms i.v. bolus) at 120 minutes. Study 3: placebo; oral melatonin (10 mg); oral pyridostigmine (120 mg); melatonin (10 mg) plus pyridostigmine (120 mg) were administered on separate occasions. Study 4: placebo; oral melatonin (10 mg); oral pyridostigmine (120 mg); melatonin (10 mg) plus pyridostigmine (120 mg) were administered on separate occasions 60 minutes prior to a submaximal dose (3 micrograms i.v. bolus) of GHRH.
SUBJECTS: Four groups of eight normal male subjects, ages 22-35 years, were randomly assigned to each protocol.
MEASUREMENTS: Growth hormone was measured by RIA at 15-minute intervals.
RESULTS: Oral melatonin administration had a weak stimulatory effect on GH basal levels. Prior melatonin administration approximately doubled the GH release induced by supramaximal (100 micrograms) or submaximal (3 micrograms) doses of GHRH. Melatonin administration restored the GH response to a second GHRH challenge, given 120 minutes after a first GHRH i.v. bolus. The GH releasing effects of pyridostigmine, either alone or followed by GHRH, were greater than those of melatonin. However, the simultaneous administration of melatonin and pyridostigmine was not followed by any further enhancement of GH release, either in the absence or in the presence of exogenous GHRH.
CONCLUSIONS: Our data indicate that oral administration of melatonin to normal human males increases basal GH release and GH responsiveness to GHRH through the same pathways as pyridostigmine. Therefore it is likely that melatonin plays this facilitatory role at the hypothalamic level by inhibiting endogenous somatostatin release, although with a lower potency than pyridostigmine. The physiological role of melatonin in GH neuroregulation remains to be established.
PMID: 8370132 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I put the pertinent results in bold. Ghrh is essentially the same thing as GRF, just a different name. And, I think that it has the same doubling effect on other growth hormone releasing peptides- such as ipamorelin, ghrp-2 and ghrp-6.
Try it, and see what I mean. You'll get an amazing night's sleep and feel like you just took 10 iu of GH. Plus, this is a very cheap way to get a lot out of very little. The combo costs about $2.10 (providing you are using generic Chinese blues and peptides from a decent source like genesispeptides.net ) for everything per use vs. $15 or so for 10 iu of GH. It's a huge savings and your body recognizes it as a natural "pulse".- for more on this, check out Dat's thread on professionalmuscle.com in the peptide section. (For the record, I didn't pull the main idea for this article from Dat's thread! This is my own little bit of internet research and based on my own experiences.)
Thursday, November 18, 2010
Understanding the IGF-1 drugs
I'm lifting this from a post I made (Jacshelb on rxmuscle.com) a few months ago while trying to understand the purpose, effectiveness and function of all the different igf-1 drugs available. It is a very very confusing topic. Since writing this I have gained a bit more understanding about what is effective and what isn't. My views have changed a little here and there, but the basic premise of this article is still the same. I'd like you to take a read through it and make up your own mind. Go out there and research other sources of info. as well. But, what I believe I offer here is a distilled understanding of the basics about these drugs.
Here are a few things I want to clear up before you read the big article though. If you take nothing else away, consider these bullet points at the very least:
- Igf1-lr3 is a good glucose disposal agent similar to a fast acting insulin but will not have a great effect on hyperplasia due to its altered chemical structure (bio-identical igf-1 is 70 amino acids and lr3 is altered and comprises of 83 amino acids in its structure). I have been told that it has no impact, or very little on insulin sensitivity- which, if true offers an advantage over using straight insulin and would justify its price. But, it shouldn't be confused with bio-identical, original igf-1!
- Igf2-lr3 is a grey area. I've been told that there are no receptors for this compound within muscle. Though I suspect it will attach and activate igf-1 receptors anyway. How effectively? I don't know. I'll stick with some other choices myself. Also, it is supposedly 70 amino acid sequence- so not a true lr3. Weird.
- PEG-MGF Long acting version of straight mgf. MGF is produced only within muscle cells themselves under certain circumstances. It is never circulating throughout your body "systemically." Therefore, much of what has been written on the use of mgf/peg-mgf for bodybuilders is not accurate because studies in the lab were done virally- by inducing the response within the cells, not injection! So, while we may get some "bleed through" into the muscle cells themselves, it is not going to be the holy grail of igf-1 drugs that research quoted in may places would have you believe.
Peg-mgf tends to act similar to igf-1 when it attaches to igf-1 receptors. So, that brings up the question of it is even favorable to use it specifically in the way that we want to use mgf for? MGF is generally used to initiate activation of satellite cells. But, igf-1 stops this process with its own process "differentiation"- where igf-1 tells the cells to "become muscle." If mgf/peg-mgf is acting "like" igf-1 at the receptor site, then it may be signalling differentiation to happen and therefore cutting-short the activation cycle we're trying to create with mgf in the first place! Clear as mud? Good.
Long story short- mgf/peg-mgf is a mixed bag. You don't know exactly what you are going to get from these drugs: maybe some satellite cell activation, maybe some igf-1 type action, glucose disposal? Who knows. More and more I'm coming to believe that maybe the best way to induce satellite cell activation is just hard eccentric weight training and then use des (1-3) igf-1 to finish off the process post workout (1 hr) with differentiation. More theories on that to come.
- DES (1-3) igf-1- Still my best bet for a good igf-1 drug. It is short acting, but quite effective at what we want it to do. It is resistant to igf-1 binding proteins and we actually want it to just provide differentiation- get in and get out. That's all igf-1 drugs are really for in my opinion.
Anyway, take a look through the mini-novel below for an entertaining read. Remember that I'm no chemist, scientist or doctor. Just a semi-educated gym rat trying to piece all of this together.
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UNDERSTANDING THE IGF-1 DRUGS
I guess I'm writing this as much to sort it all out as to tell what I know (which is very little when it comes to this). Right now there are several variations of insulin like growth factor available on the market. It is my contention that some of these simply do not work for our goals, or at least they don't work "as they should". I want to explain why I think that and also which ones have greater potential and why.
IGF-1 LR3 is the most common, popular and prevalent form available right now. But, there is a big question of whether it works and by what mechanism. Originally we had a bio-identical version of igf-1, rigf-1, that was very short acting. Though it was in and out of your system very quickly it had a reputation for inducing hyperplasia (activation and maturation of muscle satellite cells). LR3 was developed for use in the lab in tissue cultures because the bio-idential igf-1 was not lasting in experiments. rigf-1= 70 amino acids, LR3= 83 amino acid sequence. As a result LR3 works very differently. Most in the know say that it is not going to activate satellite cells/induce hyperplasia because of it's amino acid structure. It just doesn't bind to the cells and cannot be broken down properly in the body for that purpose. It does, however, have insulin-like effects (duh, right?). I've experienced this first hand. So, used on a steroid cycle it'll boost gains just as humalog would. Do you get pumps and greater vascularity from insulin? Well, you'll get it from IGF-1 LR3 as well. And, imo, that's about it. It's all of the "insulin like" with non of the (for our purposes/hyperplasia) special "growth factor."
The second most common/popular igf-1 drug is MGF/PEG-MGF- Mechano Growth Factor. Another name for it is IGF-1Ec. It is different than IGF-1 LR3 in structure and effect. The PEG form is simply a longer acting form of MGF, not an entirely different structure like we see in rigf-1 vs igf-1 lr3. Most people will say that PEG-MGF's effects are systemic and MGF's effects are local. i.e. PEG is for the whole body and regular MGF is for "site-enhancement." Personally, I don't buy this. Like I said, it's not two entirely different structures like the two igf-1s. MGF is so short acting that I doubt its effects can fully be seen even when used for site enhancement. It's simply broken down too fast. So the question is: Is PEG MGF so resistant to being metabolised that it can't work at the local level in the muscle?
For local/site-enhancement to work the product has to basically be used while it is in said location. I.e. you shoot it in your biceps and before it can move out into the rest of your body it is broken down in the muscle and "put to work" stimulating the satellite cells and helping them become new muscle. How long does PEG-MGF stay in that "site"? How effective is MGF at this to begin with?
I don't know. That's the short answer. But, I do know that it has more potential for site-enhancement than IGF-1LR3 because it is still a useable form when it comes to effecting satellite cells. It's up to you whether you want to use the PEG form or not. I honestly couldn't tell you which is best and you'll see people swearing each one is better than the other.
The main thing I want to get across is that it isn't like LR3 where they totally changed the structure to make it "longer acting". With MGF they simply PEGylated it so that it would hold up longer in the system. You still have the original drug, just a longer-acting version of it. To me, since PEG MGF is longer-acting and also an original, bio-available form of IGF-1, I give it better chances at working overall than IGF-1 LR3. I know some will say I'm comparing apples to oranges here. But, I feel more like I'm comparing IGF-1 to insulin. PEG-MGF is still going to have unique effects other than nutrient shuttling, IGF-1 LR3 is not!
DES (1-3) IGF-1 is the latest and, to me, the most promising of all the igf-1 drugs. It is basically bio-available igf-1 (like the original) but with the last 3 amino acids taken off. Some would ask, why does this make it better? Well, that makes it the most bio-available form.
See, here's what happens in our bodies naturally. When we lift weights we produce lactic acid. We also increase hormone output, insulin, GH, test, igf-1 etc. One of the ways that our bodies grow is this: when igf-1 comes in contact with lactic acid some of it is destroyed, but some of it is resilient and only the last 3 amino acids are "cleaved" off of it. This is the form that really goes to work inducing growth! That's why it has been recommended that igf-1 and MGF are injected into the muscles worked post-workout- to take advantage of this phenomena.
With DES (1-2) IGF-1, the work is already done for us. And, since it's a larger dose (especially considering what would survive in the end naturally) than our bodies puts out naturally, it is theoretically many times more effective than original rIGF-1 and the other forms.
Here's a bit longer post from a couple years ago when this stuff was super expensive and hard to find. It's still hard to find, but it's out there....
"DES (1-3) IGF-1 (NOT THE SAME AS IGF-1)
Most athletes have heard of IGF-1 (Insulin like growth factor-1) and the amazing anabolic effects it has been reported to have upon protein based tissue such as muscle. Des (1-3) IGF-1 is over 10 times (1000%) more anabolic than IGF-1. Now that is amazing!!
IGF-1 is actually produced from both Insulin and growth hormone in the liver and other tissues. IGF-1 is made up of 70 amino acids in a chain. Well, when a clever chemist removes the last 3 amino acids in the IGF-1 chain (the N-terminal tri-peptide) it becomes Des (1-3) IGF-1 and 1000% plus more anabolic. Why? IGF-1 circulates through our blood stream and tissue 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Unfortunately, most of the IGF-1 is inactive because it is bound by another protein called (get this) IGF-1 Binding Protein-3, or IGF-1-BP-3 for short. Since bound hormones can not fit into and trigger a receptor-site, the majority of circulating and muscle IGF-1 can not trigger an anabolic stimulus. Like tons of cellulite in a porno movie (who watches those?) there is little good stuff happening. However, when IGF-1 is altered and becomes Des (1-3) IGF-1 the binding protein IGF-1-BP-3 can not bind to it and it is totally active. Another reason Des (1-3) IGF-1 is so potent is its unique ability to fit into lactic acid altered IGF-1 receptor sites. (YUP) When we train we burn carbohydrates as a fuel to make cellular ATP. When cells switch to this ATP pathway, the by-product is Lactic Acid. This is of course the cause of most of the burn we feel during intense or higher rep sets. Well, the lactic acid build-up is called acidosis, and it destroys the shape of some receptor-sites for period of time. Therefore some anabolic/anti-catabolic hormones have difficulty merging with their respective receptor- site and triggering a response (such as even unbound IGF-1). Not so with Des (1-3) IGF- 1, the super growth factor. It fits into the IGF-1 receptor-site even after acidosis. Des (1- 3) IGF-1 is unbound, over 10 times more potent than IGF-1, and it picks receptor-site locks. Too bad it has only a few minute active-life.
Did you know that our body's make Des (1-3) IGF-1 naturally? Most un-informed individuals claim other wise, but it is true. When an athlete trains lactic acid builds up in muscle tissue. As we know, there is always IGF-1 / GH present in the blood stream and tissues (including muscle) from prior work-outs and other metabolic factors. That lactic acid burn triggers IGF-1/GH secretion from both prior and present work-outs. Unfortunately, lactic acid destroys some of the IGF-1 present in muscles being trained. But wait, this is good too!
Lactic acid also cuts (truncates) the last 3 amino acids off the 70 amino acid chain of "some" of the surviving IGF-1 and creates Des (I-3) IGF-1. So acidosis increases GH/IGF-1 production in the liver, "unbinds" IGF-1 locally in the muscle being trained (burned), destroys some of the IGF-1, and converts some IGF-1 into Des (I-3) IGF-1. Huh, good deal. And the synthetic form of this super anabolic stuff is beginning to show up on the black market more frequently."
This one is kind of obscure. But, from what I can gather about it it is a hormone that is present during gestation. It has a 67 amino acid sequence (like DES (1-3) IGF-1). It is said to do the same thing as IGF-1 LR3, but faster. Well, if that refers to hyperplasia then I'd agree that, at least on paper, this should be much faster! I mean, it actually is a substance produced in the body whereas 1-LR3 isn't even bio-available for what we want it for (83 amino acid chain remember, doesn't "fit" in the receptor!).
It is said to have a synergistic effect when combined with 1-LR3. But, my instincts would say to combine it with DES for better results. The idea being that, just like a lot of GH peptides, combining a good IGF-1 with a good IGF-2 has a synergistic effect where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. i.e. if you took igf-1 alone it'd do x amount of what you want, same with igf-2, but combine them and the results are multiplied supposedly. Again, I'd (and will) go with DES (1-3) IGF-1 when combining with IGF-2 Lr3 rather than combining it with IGF-1 LR3 for reasons stated before.
Obviously I'm taking a bit of a stab in the dark at what the optimal igf protocol might be at this time. But, it is an educated guess.
First of all, I want to clarify a few myths:
1) It's the fact that IGF-1 LR3 is "long acting" that makes it not as good for site-enhancement/hyperplasia. That's what makes it a "systemic" igf vs a "local" site-enhancement drug.
Wrong. While it is longer acting than original rIGF-1, it is the fact that it is an 83 amino acid sequence that causes it not to work for our purposes. It basically (and yes, I'm waaay over-simplifying it, that's what I do!) doesn't "fit" in the receptor site! It still has insulin-like properties. And, for those that have used it and other variants you'll see that it actually has the most insulin-like properties of any of them. My theory is specifically because it doesn't get used any other way! It isn't metabolised/broken down like normal igf-1 and it can be used by the muscle the same way. What's left? Yep, systemic, insulin-like effects similar to low-moderately dosed humalog or humalin-r. That doesn't make it worthless, just over-priced for it's actually benefits.
2) PEG-MGF will not have localized effects because it is too "long-acting"
Wrong. This one doesn't make sense when you think about it: In one bicep you have a shot of regular MGF suspended in water. In the other bicep you have PEG-MGF and you've just finished an arm workout. The drugs and water are both going to "pass through" the muscle where it was injected at the same rate. Why would one get used and the other not just because one has a longer "half-life"?
Here's the real question: Does the PEGylation make the MGF molecule too large to fit into the receptor as it passes through? (they are both -peg and non peg- exiting the muscle at the same basic rate remember) If the PEGylation is too heavy making the molecule too large, then yes, PEG-MGF will not be as effective locally/in said muscle. But, it has nothing to do with how long it lasts in and of itself.
Does PEGylation make MGF too large to work? It depends on how its done and how heavy the formula is.
The other thing to consider is: how stable is MGf without PEGylation? The answer is: Not very! It is said that to keep it totally undamaged you must freeze it several degrees below zero! It's a very fragile drug, that's why PEG was added to it to begin with. So, it's a bit of a trade off. If you want to get full, hyperplasia inducing benefits from regular MGF then you better mix it and use it all pretty quick!! If you are willing to put up with somewhat reduced benefits (i.e. not all of the MGF being used in the muscle because of the PEGylation, but still some of it getting in) while having a more stable drug that will last much longer, then go with PEG-MGF. Money wise I'd go the second route. I'm guessing a percentage of it is still going to be effective even with PEGylation. Though the same could be said about regular MGF's degradation over time- some of it will still be useful. Just how much either way is getting to the muscle is hard to say!
3) Since IGF-2 LR3 is an LR3 drug, then it must be similar to IGF-1 LR3.
Wrong. It's not even close. 1-LR3 is 83 amino acids and 2-LR3 is 67. One is ideal (67) and one is almost useless (83).
So, what's the best overall protocol?
Again, this is my best educated guess. But, based on the science, I would proceed like this: DES (1-3) IGF-1 + IGF-2 LR3 immediately pre workout with PEG (or non PEG, your call) MGF immediately post workout. The reasoning behind this is because the first two drugs are what I'd call "stimulators" in that they tell the satellite cells to "wake-up"! During the workout satellite cells are going to be stimulated and it is a natural environment to have igf-1 in your system. These two drugs can shuttle nutrients most effectively at this time (have your carbs, creatine and aminos during your workout!!) and the muscles are active and receptive to igfs!
MGF is a gene spliced version of IGF-1 and it is more of a "defining" drug. I don't mean fat loss, I mean that it tells the now-active satellite cells what to become. Immediately post workout is when your body has the greatest amount of trauma to the muscle and the satellite cells are most active in the muscles you've just worked. Taking MGF at this time helps define those cells as muscle, puts them to work and tells them what to do! Have another carb/amino/creatine etc. shake after your MGF shot. Shoot the MGF into the muscles worked that you want to see more site growth from.
How much should you take? Where should you buy it? I don't know. Go with a supplier you trust and read up on dosages. Most DES and Igf-2 users take somewhere around 10-20 mcg ea. which sounds about right to me. If you are having trouble getting/finding these, talk to your supplier and let them know you are interested in these. They respond to demand not necessarily science. So, speak up! Give this a shot if you are curious.
I'm not guaranteeing results. But, all of this has been so confusing and vague that I thought it'd be nice to talk about it, define what works and why and hear other people's thought on it. Do you have experience with these? What do you think of all this? Trust me, I don't know it all and want to hear other people's experiences and thoughts on it!!
Here are a few things I want to clear up before you read the big article though. If you take nothing else away, consider these bullet points at the very least:
- Igf1-lr3 is a good glucose disposal agent similar to a fast acting insulin but will not have a great effect on hyperplasia due to its altered chemical structure (bio-identical igf-1 is 70 amino acids and lr3 is altered and comprises of 83 amino acids in its structure). I have been told that it has no impact, or very little on insulin sensitivity- which, if true offers an advantage over using straight insulin and would justify its price. But, it shouldn't be confused with bio-identical, original igf-1!
- Igf2-lr3 is a grey area. I've been told that there are no receptors for this compound within muscle. Though I suspect it will attach and activate igf-1 receptors anyway. How effectively? I don't know. I'll stick with some other choices myself. Also, it is supposedly 70 amino acid sequence- so not a true lr3. Weird.
- PEG-MGF Long acting version of straight mgf. MGF is produced only within muscle cells themselves under certain circumstances. It is never circulating throughout your body "systemically." Therefore, much of what has been written on the use of mgf/peg-mgf for bodybuilders is not accurate because studies in the lab were done virally- by inducing the response within the cells, not injection! So, while we may get some "bleed through" into the muscle cells themselves, it is not going to be the holy grail of igf-1 drugs that research quoted in may places would have you believe.
Peg-mgf tends to act similar to igf-1 when it attaches to igf-1 receptors. So, that brings up the question of it is even favorable to use it specifically in the way that we want to use mgf for? MGF is generally used to initiate activation of satellite cells. But, igf-1 stops this process with its own process "differentiation"- where igf-1 tells the cells to "become muscle." If mgf/peg-mgf is acting "like" igf-1 at the receptor site, then it may be signalling differentiation to happen and therefore cutting-short the activation cycle we're trying to create with mgf in the first place! Clear as mud? Good.
Long story short- mgf/peg-mgf is a mixed bag. You don't know exactly what you are going to get from these drugs: maybe some satellite cell activation, maybe some igf-1 type action, glucose disposal? Who knows. More and more I'm coming to believe that maybe the best way to induce satellite cell activation is just hard eccentric weight training and then use des (1-3) igf-1 to finish off the process post workout (1 hr) with differentiation. More theories on that to come.
- DES (1-3) igf-1- Still my best bet for a good igf-1 drug. It is short acting, but quite effective at what we want it to do. It is resistant to igf-1 binding proteins and we actually want it to just provide differentiation- get in and get out. That's all igf-1 drugs are really for in my opinion.
Anyway, take a look through the mini-novel below for an entertaining read. Remember that I'm no chemist, scientist or doctor. Just a semi-educated gym rat trying to piece all of this together.
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UNDERSTANDING THE IGF-1 DRUGS
I guess I'm writing this as much to sort it all out as to tell what I know (which is very little when it comes to this). Right now there are several variations of insulin like growth factor available on the market. It is my contention that some of these simply do not work for our goals, or at least they don't work "as they should". I want to explain why I think that and also which ones have greater potential and why.
IGF-1 LR3 is the most common, popular and prevalent form available right now. But, there is a big question of whether it works and by what mechanism. Originally we had a bio-identical version of igf-1, rigf-1, that was very short acting. Though it was in and out of your system very quickly it had a reputation for inducing hyperplasia (activation and maturation of muscle satellite cells). LR3 was developed for use in the lab in tissue cultures because the bio-idential igf-1 was not lasting in experiments. rigf-1= 70 amino acids, LR3= 83 amino acid sequence. As a result LR3 works very differently. Most in the know say that it is not going to activate satellite cells/induce hyperplasia because of it's amino acid structure. It just doesn't bind to the cells and cannot be broken down properly in the body for that purpose. It does, however, have insulin-like effects (duh, right?). I've experienced this first hand. So, used on a steroid cycle it'll boost gains just as humalog would. Do you get pumps and greater vascularity from insulin? Well, you'll get it from IGF-1 LR3 as well. And, imo, that's about it. It's all of the "insulin like" with non of the (for our purposes/hyperplasia) special "growth factor."
The second most common/popular igf-1 drug is MGF/PEG-MGF- Mechano Growth Factor. Another name for it is IGF-1Ec. It is different than IGF-1 LR3 in structure and effect. The PEG form is simply a longer acting form of MGF, not an entirely different structure like we see in rigf-1 vs igf-1 lr3. Most people will say that PEG-MGF's effects are systemic and MGF's effects are local. i.e. PEG is for the whole body and regular MGF is for "site-enhancement." Personally, I don't buy this. Like I said, it's not two entirely different structures like the two igf-1s. MGF is so short acting that I doubt its effects can fully be seen even when used for site enhancement. It's simply broken down too fast. So the question is: Is PEG MGF so resistant to being metabolised that it can't work at the local level in the muscle?
For local/site-enhancement to work the product has to basically be used while it is in said location. I.e. you shoot it in your biceps and before it can move out into the rest of your body it is broken down in the muscle and "put to work" stimulating the satellite cells and helping them become new muscle. How long does PEG-MGF stay in that "site"? How effective is MGF at this to begin with?
I don't know. That's the short answer. But, I do know that it has more potential for site-enhancement than IGF-1LR3 because it is still a useable form when it comes to effecting satellite cells. It's up to you whether you want to use the PEG form or not. I honestly couldn't tell you which is best and you'll see people swearing each one is better than the other.
The main thing I want to get across is that it isn't like LR3 where they totally changed the structure to make it "longer acting". With MGF they simply PEGylated it so that it would hold up longer in the system. You still have the original drug, just a longer-acting version of it. To me, since PEG MGF is longer-acting and also an original, bio-available form of IGF-1, I give it better chances at working overall than IGF-1 LR3. I know some will say I'm comparing apples to oranges here. But, I feel more like I'm comparing IGF-1 to insulin. PEG-MGF is still going to have unique effects other than nutrient shuttling, IGF-1 LR3 is not!
DES (1-3) IGF-1 is the latest and, to me, the most promising of all the igf-1 drugs. It is basically bio-available igf-1 (like the original) but with the last 3 amino acids taken off. Some would ask, why does this make it better? Well, that makes it the most bio-available form.
See, here's what happens in our bodies naturally. When we lift weights we produce lactic acid. We also increase hormone output, insulin, GH, test, igf-1 etc. One of the ways that our bodies grow is this: when igf-1 comes in contact with lactic acid some of it is destroyed, but some of it is resilient and only the last 3 amino acids are "cleaved" off of it. This is the form that really goes to work inducing growth! That's why it has been recommended that igf-1 and MGF are injected into the muscles worked post-workout- to take advantage of this phenomena.
With DES (1-2) IGF-1, the work is already done for us. And, since it's a larger dose (especially considering what would survive in the end naturally) than our bodies puts out naturally, it is theoretically many times more effective than original rIGF-1 and the other forms.
Here's a bit longer post from a couple years ago when this stuff was super expensive and hard to find. It's still hard to find, but it's out there....
"DES (1-3) IGF-1 (NOT THE SAME AS IGF-1)
Most athletes have heard of IGF-1 (Insulin like growth factor-1) and the amazing anabolic effects it has been reported to have upon protein based tissue such as muscle. Des (1-3) IGF-1 is over 10 times (1000%) more anabolic than IGF-1. Now that is amazing!!
IGF-1 is actually produced from both Insulin and growth hormone in the liver and other tissues. IGF-1 is made up of 70 amino acids in a chain. Well, when a clever chemist removes the last 3 amino acids in the IGF-1 chain (the N-terminal tri-peptide) it becomes Des (1-3) IGF-1 and 1000% plus more anabolic. Why? IGF-1 circulates through our blood stream and tissue 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Unfortunately, most of the IGF-1 is inactive because it is bound by another protein called (get this) IGF-1 Binding Protein-3, or IGF-1-BP-3 for short. Since bound hormones can not fit into and trigger a receptor-site, the majority of circulating and muscle IGF-1 can not trigger an anabolic stimulus. Like tons of cellulite in a porno movie (who watches those?) there is little good stuff happening. However, when IGF-1 is altered and becomes Des (1-3) IGF-1 the binding protein IGF-1-BP-3 can not bind to it and it is totally active. Another reason Des (1-3) IGF-1 is so potent is its unique ability to fit into lactic acid altered IGF-1 receptor sites. (YUP) When we train we burn carbohydrates as a fuel to make cellular ATP. When cells switch to this ATP pathway, the by-product is Lactic Acid. This is of course the cause of most of the burn we feel during intense or higher rep sets. Well, the lactic acid build-up is called acidosis, and it destroys the shape of some receptor-sites for period of time. Therefore some anabolic/anti-catabolic hormones have difficulty merging with their respective receptor- site and triggering a response (such as even unbound IGF-1). Not so with Des (1-3) IGF- 1, the super growth factor. It fits into the IGF-1 receptor-site even after acidosis. Des (1- 3) IGF-1 is unbound, over 10 times more potent than IGF-1, and it picks receptor-site locks. Too bad it has only a few minute active-life.
Did you know that our body's make Des (1-3) IGF-1 naturally? Most un-informed individuals claim other wise, but it is true. When an athlete trains lactic acid builds up in muscle tissue. As we know, there is always IGF-1 / GH present in the blood stream and tissues (including muscle) from prior work-outs and other metabolic factors. That lactic acid burn triggers IGF-1/GH secretion from both prior and present work-outs. Unfortunately, lactic acid destroys some of the IGF-1 present in muscles being trained. But wait, this is good too!
Lactic acid also cuts (truncates) the last 3 amino acids off the 70 amino acid chain of "some" of the surviving IGF-1 and creates Des (I-3) IGF-1. So acidosis increases GH/IGF-1 production in the liver, "unbinds" IGF-1 locally in the muscle being trained (burned), destroys some of the IGF-1, and converts some IGF-1 into Des (I-3) IGF-1. Huh, good deal. And the synthetic form of this super anabolic stuff is beginning to show up on the black market more frequently."
This one is kind of obscure. But, from what I can gather about it it is a hormone that is present during gestation. It has a 67 amino acid sequence (like DES (1-3) IGF-1). It is said to do the same thing as IGF-1 LR3, but faster. Well, if that refers to hyperplasia then I'd agree that, at least on paper, this should be much faster! I mean, it actually is a substance produced in the body whereas 1-LR3 isn't even bio-available for what we want it for (83 amino acid chain remember, doesn't "fit" in the receptor!).
It is said to have a synergistic effect when combined with 1-LR3. But, my instincts would say to combine it with DES for better results. The idea being that, just like a lot of GH peptides, combining a good IGF-1 with a good IGF-2 has a synergistic effect where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. i.e. if you took igf-1 alone it'd do x amount of what you want, same with igf-2, but combine them and the results are multiplied supposedly. Again, I'd (and will) go with DES (1-3) IGF-1 when combining with IGF-2 Lr3 rather than combining it with IGF-1 LR3 for reasons stated before.
Obviously I'm taking a bit of a stab in the dark at what the optimal igf protocol might be at this time. But, it is an educated guess.
First of all, I want to clarify a few myths:
1) It's the fact that IGF-1 LR3 is "long acting" that makes it not as good for site-enhancement/hyperplasia. That's what makes it a "systemic" igf vs a "local" site-enhancement drug.
Wrong. While it is longer acting than original rIGF-1, it is the fact that it is an 83 amino acid sequence that causes it not to work for our purposes. It basically (and yes, I'm waaay over-simplifying it, that's what I do!) doesn't "fit" in the receptor site! It still has insulin-like properties. And, for those that have used it and other variants you'll see that it actually has the most insulin-like properties of any of them. My theory is specifically because it doesn't get used any other way! It isn't metabolised/broken down like normal igf-1 and it can be used by the muscle the same way. What's left? Yep, systemic, insulin-like effects similar to low-moderately dosed humalog or humalin-r. That doesn't make it worthless, just over-priced for it's actually benefits.
2) PEG-MGF will not have localized effects because it is too "long-acting"
Wrong. This one doesn't make sense when you think about it: In one bicep you have a shot of regular MGF suspended in water. In the other bicep you have PEG-MGF and you've just finished an arm workout. The drugs and water are both going to "pass through" the muscle where it was injected at the same rate. Why would one get used and the other not just because one has a longer "half-life"?
Here's the real question: Does the PEGylation make the MGF molecule too large to fit into the receptor as it passes through? (they are both -peg and non peg- exiting the muscle at the same basic rate remember) If the PEGylation is too heavy making the molecule too large, then yes, PEG-MGF will not be as effective locally/in said muscle. But, it has nothing to do with how long it lasts in and of itself.
Does PEGylation make MGF too large to work? It depends on how its done and how heavy the formula is.
The other thing to consider is: how stable is MGf without PEGylation? The answer is: Not very! It is said that to keep it totally undamaged you must freeze it several degrees below zero! It's a very fragile drug, that's why PEG was added to it to begin with. So, it's a bit of a trade off. If you want to get full, hyperplasia inducing benefits from regular MGF then you better mix it and use it all pretty quick!! If you are willing to put up with somewhat reduced benefits (i.e. not all of the MGF being used in the muscle because of the PEGylation, but still some of it getting in) while having a more stable drug that will last much longer, then go with PEG-MGF. Money wise I'd go the second route. I'm guessing a percentage of it is still going to be effective even with PEGylation. Though the same could be said about regular MGF's degradation over time- some of it will still be useful. Just how much either way is getting to the muscle is hard to say!
3) Since IGF-2 LR3 is an LR3 drug, then it must be similar to IGF-1 LR3.
Wrong. It's not even close. 1-LR3 is 83 amino acids and 2-LR3 is 67. One is ideal (67) and one is almost useless (83).
So, what's the best overall protocol?
Again, this is my best educated guess. But, based on the science, I would proceed like this: DES (1-3) IGF-1 + IGF-2 LR3 immediately pre workout with PEG (or non PEG, your call) MGF immediately post workout. The reasoning behind this is because the first two drugs are what I'd call "stimulators" in that they tell the satellite cells to "wake-up"! During the workout satellite cells are going to be stimulated and it is a natural environment to have igf-1 in your system. These two drugs can shuttle nutrients most effectively at this time (have your carbs, creatine and aminos during your workout!!) and the muscles are active and receptive to igfs!
MGF is a gene spliced version of IGF-1 and it is more of a "defining" drug. I don't mean fat loss, I mean that it tells the now-active satellite cells what to become. Immediately post workout is when your body has the greatest amount of trauma to the muscle and the satellite cells are most active in the muscles you've just worked. Taking MGF at this time helps define those cells as muscle, puts them to work and tells them what to do! Have another carb/amino/creatine etc. shake after your MGF shot. Shoot the MGF into the muscles worked that you want to see more site growth from.
How much should you take? Where should you buy it? I don't know. Go with a supplier you trust and read up on dosages. Most DES and Igf-2 users take somewhere around 10-20 mcg ea. which sounds about right to me. If you are having trouble getting/finding these, talk to your supplier and let them know you are interested in these. They respond to demand not necessarily science. So, speak up! Give this a shot if you are curious.
I'm not guaranteeing results. But, all of this has been so confusing and vague that I thought it'd be nice to talk about it, define what works and why and hear other people's thought on it. Do you have experience with these? What do you think of all this? Trust me, I don't know it all and want to hear other people's experiences and thoughts on it!!
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